What will your daughter be?

The Little Lounge Coffee Corner - General Chat
1

I thought it would be interesting to share this with you here.

Just as the author, I have nothing against Disney Princess. I don’t even have a daughter and I’m not a radical feminist but this is a very interesting work and point of view.

While boys are raised to dream about more feasible things like to be a soccer player, scientist or entrepreneur, too many girls have the unrealistic dream of being a princess.

The website:

Text: http://www.jaimemoorephotography.com/2013/05/09/not-just-a-girl/
PS: I think it’s a small website with a lot of traffic now, so be patient if you get some error

So my amazing daughter, Emma, turned 5 last month, and I had been searching everywhere for new-creative inspiration for her 5yr pictures. I noticed quite a pattern of so many young girls dressing up as beautiful Disney Princesses, no matter where I looked 95% of the “ideas” were the “How to’s” of how to dress your little girl like a Disney Princess. Now don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Disney Princesses, from their beautiful dresses, perfect hair, gorgeous voices and most with ideal love stories in the mix you can’t help but become entranced with the characters. But it got me thinking, they’re just characters, a writers tale of a princess (most before 1998)…an unrealistic fantasy for most girls (Yay Kate Middleton!).
It started me thinking about all the REAL women for my daughter to know about and look up too, REAL women who without ever meeting Emma have changed her life for the better. My daughter wasn’t born into royalty, but she was born into a country where she can now vote, become a doctor, a pilot, an astronaut, or even President if she wants and that’s what REALLY matters. I wanted her to know the value of these amazing women who had gone against everything so she can now have everything. We chose 5 women (five amazing and strong women), as it was her 5th birthday but there are thousands of unbelievable women (and girls) who have beat the odds and fought (and still fight) for their equal rights all over the world………so let’s set aside the Barbie Dolls and the Disney Princesses for just a moment, and let’s show our girls the REAL women they can be.

2

Contrast that with the EL girl who didn’t know her princesses (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007/10/28/rush_little_baby/) that we just talked about here: http://forum.brillkids.com/general-discussion-b5/latest-criticism-of-early-learning/

My daughter is crazy about Rapunzel, which is fine with me. I’ve used her opening song to motivate her to do a lot of things. Rapunzel plays chess, do you want to learn too? I know I was inspired by Sleeping Beauty as a little girl, in fact, nothing made me want to learn to sing better than listening her to in the woods. There are a lot of criticisms of the Disney Princess line that I’ve seen lately. Some of them are very justified, like Ariel being a brat who shouldn’t have run away from home. Belle suffers from Stockholm syndrome, which almost never works out in real life. But hey, she encourages girls to read! And what’s with most of them not being raised by both of their parents? Let’s see, Snow White, Cinderella, Ariel, Jasmin, Sleeping Beauty, Belle, Tiana, Pocahontas, Rapunzel. None were raised by both their parents, and that bothers me. It’s not that it’s wrong for there to be single parents, obviously things happen, but in this case, it’s not divorce, it’s the parent’s demise, or separation. That’s not the norm! Merida’s family life was a breath of fresh air.

Having said all that, I’m not a feminist, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with girls aspiring marry when they grow up. I think finding a good husband and making your marriage work is the best way to “live happily ever after.” That’s still the ideal, even if it doesn’t pan out to reality for many. What’s wrong with being sweet and gentle? To work hard and do it with “a smile an a song”? I love the scene when Snow White prays that her dreams will come true. During the depression, it gave a lot of little girls hope for a better future. I often refer to my husband as “my handsome prince”, and when I think about being like a princess, I want to be a better person. I want to have our home be cleaner, for there to be more order. To be more sweet and loving with my children. I don’t want to conquer the world, I want to capture my children’s hearts.

I like to think that overall admiring the pretty princesses is good and mostly harmless, but I love this photographer’s efforts to look for women to admire that we can really dig into. They were real people. Our daughters too can grow up to be great people, who can have a lasting impact in the world.

I have mixed feelings on the Disney Princess debate. But I love this article. Thanks for sharing, Mario!

3

My 5 year old girl loves Disney Princess. Now she is almost 6 and she says that she starts to like Barbies instead of Princess. I think that Barbies are much more silly thing than princesses because princesses are based on old fairy tales which are worth to read. My daughter wants to read magazines about Disney Princesses so I also read these magazines and I am satisfied with them. These princesses are well-behaved, intelligent and helping. And, the most important, they choose what they want to do and what they want to marry. Which is in contrast to old fairy tales where princess did not have choice and sometimes they even had to marry an animal which later transformed to prince :smiley: These new princesses are rather feministic. Except Snowwhite who come in unknown house and started to clean and bake :smiley: These new princesses do not cultivate the syndrome of victim which is so common in old stories about women and marriage.

Now she likes Barbies, later she will switch to something else. Her right to like Disney Princess is the same as her right to be 5 years old :slight_smile:

4

I know another sort of princess.
She plays “dress ups” with her female adult friends and they belly dance together.
The philosophy, as I understand it now is based on group support.

The dance has certain moves which take some skill.
The group improvise the choreography as the music takes them.
Each dancer takes a turn to lead being careful not to make it too complex for the least experienced member but to give them a new and fun experience.
This is ATS belly dancing and very little girls love it too.

When I first saw the women dressing up before a public performance I was astonished.
It looked so camp and over the top.
It took about an hour.
Lots of makeup and glued on sparkles.
Henna fingers, rings bracelets and turbans, brass and dangling coins.
Warrior style like Ghengis Khan or Bodicea.
There is not much skin showing with layers of frilled skirts and huge satin pantaloons.
The cholee or bodice/bra is not at all skimpy.

They maintain they are not out to titilate the men in the audience and I believe them.
But I do enjoy seeing the older generation of male standing transfixed often with his mouth open.
The women smile and the little children dance.

The music grates my ears but seems right when the group is dancing.
It is powerful and feminine and I think confronting in a way that might be about that power.
I believe men do participate but that is uncommon.

I know there are a couple of belly dancers who will read this.

Interesting topic sexual identity and how we might be role modelling our own views.

5

I was just thinking about this on Mother’s Day after I chose a Barbie movie to watch that night. I don’t care much about Disney princesses but I love Barbie princess movies. The first Barbie movies were ballet themed like the nutcracker and later the movies turned into the most beautiful fairy tales and now they have made them more modern and I have no interest in that and wouldn’t recommend them…
In the first movie’s Barbie was was of course beautiful, the scenery looked beautiful and there is always a man she falls in love with and not because he’s handsome. Barbie plays a character who is always smart, brave, clever, caring and kind. Those are character traits I want my daughter to have. They teach that love is most important and Barbie almost always gets married at the end.

I chose Barbie as the island princess to watch on Mother’s Day. It’s a musical and my husband even admits it’s a super beautiful movie.
The movie was supposed to be in old England and it got us talking about it. I see a lot of tools for early learning. The ballet movies have beautiful dancing and symphony music also.

Barbie as Ro singing to her elephant friend, Tika who’s jealous of Ro and the prince.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H4NoHxtfw4

The ending song when Barbie gets married:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXCIgxZTxxw&feature=youtu.be

I hope my daughter will be brave, kind, caring, fun and smart. Marry a man she loves and who loves her, teaches by example, loves others and treats them as she would want to be treated. I hope she’s feminine, works hard and knows she doesn’t have to have a man’s job. She can be a princess.

6

My oldest was really into Disney princesses for a while. I didn’t do anything to get her into them but she really started talking about princesses and like the Disney stuff around 3… I didn’t buy stuff or get any of the movies before then but she picked it up from school and culture. Even though I cringed at times I let her get a few things but I didn’t over indulge it. I didn’t want to forbid it but it was hard at times. She was really into princesses for quite a while and would want to dress like one but since she didn’t see the movies I don’t even know that she knew all their names. Just recently she declared to me that she doesn’t like princesses anymore. For over a year now she answers that she wants to be a doctor when I ask what she wants to be when she grows up so I don’t think the princesses corrupted her aspirations in life :wink:

7

I don’t understand the detest for Disney Princess. Some of those women are kick butt strong!
Mulan fought for her country. Soldier.
Belle sacrifices herself for her father. I loved that she was an avid reader. I associated well with her.
Pochontas has honor and tries to protect her homeland and tribes tradtions. Environmentalist.
Arial is willing to follow her dreams and venture into the world to try something new. That is brave.

I never saw the princesses as weak or sappy or pining over a man. And so what if they have a low interest. I would say a majority of the population marry or have long term relationships. Is that something bad to desire?

Sure…, there are negative sides. But as parents we can choose to focus on their strength.

8

Even Barbie is not completely bad. There are strong Barbies. Business woman Barbie, president Barbie maybe?
And I enjoy the Barbie movies also. I think that Barbie is an admirable character in the movies. She is gentle, kind, compassionate and logical. She often follows her heart but uses her head. I don’t see these as bad traits.

9

We have Karate barbie :slight_smile:
Personally I was quite against the whole barbie movie idea until I actually sat down and watched one. Now we have all but one ( just couldn’t OK barbie fashionista) and we don’t own a lot of mainstream movies!
HOWEVER my girls also read the original versions of the various princess stories. I think it is important to get the full story not just the Disney version. Belle wasn’t a princess in the original, just one of many children. The only non selfish child in the family. The books have more depth, encourage more thinking and allow for more questions and discussion.
Anything in moderation. My princess loving daughter wants to be an artist and a teacher when she grows up. My " couldn’t care less about princesses" daughter wants to be a marine micro biologist or a elite gymnastics coach… Perhaps I should ban barbie movies? lol

10

Another aspect. I will translate the answer of psychologist Anita Plūme. I like this.

… discussion about the girl named Elisabeth and her interest on princesses and pink color.

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Pink color is a good taste for little girl. If mother will allow for her girl to try things which are characteristic for this age, later her taste will be similar to taste of her mother. If mother will forbid and criticize, later (age 20 - 25) this girl will find hard to adopt the taste of her mother. It would be unnaturally if little girl would have taste of adult women. Little girl with reason wants to feel like princess because when she will grow up she often will be Cinderella which can transform only in ball. But she needs the ability to transform, to enjoy the life. Parents are responsible for the creation of this ability by allowing to live the role of princess - the especial, the marvelous. Othervice this girl later will feel unpriced, frightened and unsafe. Every little girl is a little princess which will grow up as warmhearted and hardworking Cinderella - but not in the opposite.

11

Some of you might like to look at this site, its a collection of books, toys and movies for smart, confident, and courageous girls

http://www.amightygirl.com/books/mighty-girls-women/role-models

I cant see any Disney Princess or Barbie on this site

12

Great thread!

These worries seem reasonable indeed. I have thought a lot about this topic but from slightly different point of view. If you consider mainstream movies or tv series, there hasn’t been that many active and thinking female leading characters before 1990. The only active female main characters I can think of were Charlie’s angles. I personally have hard time watching an entire movie without any female characters to relate to. lol

Since then the situation has improved a lot. There seems to be plenty of active and thinking female characters to choose like Tomb raider, Buffy the vampire killer, Twilight series just to name few.

Now that I read your comments I start to think whether this kind of transition is still somewhat already happening/ waiting to happen in the children tv series and toys. I was very happy when The Powerpuff Girls started. Also Dora the Explorer is an example of this kind of active female main character.

13

Hello girls!

I’m loving reading your thoughts.

As a boy and man, of course I never wanted to watch Disney Princess and Barbies movies. For me it was a girl thing, but not a bad thing for girls.

Today I see a lot of person talking about pink like if it were BPA that would bring some disease. For me, there is no problem in raising a girl… like a girl. And also there is no problem to raise a girl to desire to marry. Our world is changing a lot that what sometime was “forbidden” is now going to an extreme point. There are several people in the world now raising their kids in a non genre way. I won’t talk about this. Too polemic. My point is with the “royalty”.

This website for the first time made me think different. But not a lot different, in a way I would change my mind to the other pole. It just opened my mind that there is the option to raise daughters also showing different role models, more feasible for today. For example: why people in the entire world cared so much about Princess Diana, to the point that she died being chased by Papparazzi? I live in a country in which Republican Government exists for more than 120 years. And still there are teenagers dreaming to marry some European prince. Well, they won’t marry. They will find a “normal” guy and they should be able to value his characteristics.

It made me think in the point that 30 years after we were born, some obsolete middle-aged values are deep inside our heads. Anyway, princess stories are part of our western culture.

If I had a baby girl, I would see no problem with fairy tales, princess, etc. But I would also reinforce some other important role models for today. As I understood from you, there is now some cartoons promoting this. This is already happening.

I haven’t seen too many cartoons with my son in which the girl is the protagonist. But I know Bo on The Go, Dora and Kay Lan. And I liked them. They are smart, gentle with good behavior and independent. They could be whatever they wanted when they grow.

And I think that it is great to raise a girl with these sense of options. Later she can by option to be a happy rock star or a great homeschooler mom and she will be doing what she loves and because she wants, not forced by someone or even by her inner values.

In short, I see no problem with princess stories. They have a lot of great points (Princess are well educated, even had early education). And to live happily ever after, we must teach how to live day by day.

14

I am a mom to 2 year old twins (girl/boy). I have been a part of this community for some time now and love it. Growing up (in India), I loved dolls (still do), and had tons of them. But they were different, not the Princess or Barbie dolls that are prevalent now. They resembled little girls, or babies. I loved to dress up as a fairy rather than a princess, being a princess felt rather exclusive, even then, as if one was above all other common people, being a fairy was delightful and imaginary . The Barbie doll is a grown up woman, I cannot understand how do the makers expect little children to relate to her ( I couldn’t, when my youngest sister got one as a present) . Same with most princess dolls I have seen. And there is always a subtle sexist suggestion which we tend to ignore, what with their perfect bodies and clothes. No wonder the girls want to grow up early and we have a new generation of tweens. Childhood is a beautiful place to be in. I don’t know what my daughter will like, right now she is not taking interest in dolls, even as we try to introduce them to her. I like the American girl, love her, and she bring a little history and culture too :slight_smile: . I hope my girl likes her, or my boy (he is into cars right now).

15

I am not a fan of Disney Princess stories that I have watched or read because often marriage is seen as the happily ever after and the thing to aspire to. I think that marriage is wonderful etc but should not be the main aspiration of everyone. Too many young women feel like no matter how successful they are in other areas they are less than if they have not married. That is ridiculous - particularly when the pressure is external not a true desire from within. I want my DD to know that she is whole and awesome and that a relationship with a guy can never complete her, but can compliment her if she so chooses. (we’ll see how that pans out in time!). Many princess fairly talesthey end with a wedding, like this is the pinnacle of the woman’s life. It’s ridiculous IMO. It can lead to disappointment.

I stayed away from pink (as far as possibly) and my daughter does not wear many dresses, simply because she enjoys running around and tumbling, jumping in puddles and climbing and generally being active. Trousers and leggings etc are more practical. I believe in modesty and if she plays in dresses or skirts I find myself trying to cover her up and get her to sit like lady when I think she should just be free to be at this age. People ask me if she is a tom-boy. She is not at all. She is just herself. She plays with trains and cars and we often stop at building sites as she likes to see construction happening and has books about diggers etc. I follow her interests as a person, and don’t tell her what she should be interested in because of her gender. She has loads of dolls she is only just showing an interest in, but they are babies or children not super-thin women dolls with unrealistically tiny waists, straight hair and make up. lol She does something that is considered girly despite the fact that (for adults / older children) it is one of the toughest things to do physically (ballet) and loves it. I’m amused that she would rather dress up as a queen than as a princess - because of the queen’s jubilee celebrations.

However, since she started nursery they have focussed on gender too much and if you ask her what colour she wants something in she will now often say pink, and she talks about not wanting to play with her cousin because he is a boy, and she wants him to be a girl. She has started asking me whether certain things are for boys or girls depending on the colour or pattern of the unisex item (like a scarf or gloves) - much to my annoyance! She is told that the boys are being naughty because they are boys which is ridiculous, it is because they are being naughty, and their behaviour is being excused because of their gender - even if the boys are being told off, it is a wrong / mixed message to give! I believe gender stereotyping is so unhelpful to children. It bugs me that you can buy pink sparkly ‘stories for girls’ and blue ‘stories for boys’ for example (my child is more complex than that), or that the doctors dress up stuff are under toys for boys and girls get to be nurses.

If my DD ends up being super girly I am fine with that. I just want it to come from within her, not from society / TV / whatever.

Back to animations - the selection of Disney Princess stories on CD has been hidden away for now as all ended with a wedding, but I am told Tangled is really good and will watch it one day to see, but I am in no hurry. There is so much more to be getting on with!

16

My home country Finland ranks top two in world gender gap analysis. There is a rumor of a small about 7 year old girl who had asked her parents whether it is really possible for a man to be a president as we had always had a female president during her lifetime.

http://www.weforum.org/issues/global-gender-gap

I think that the gender is very important for persons sense of personality and I plan to raise my children accordingly. To me it is very important to raise my boy to wear mainly blue clothes, play mainly with toys meant for boys and so on. If I ever have a girl I am planning to raise her to wear pink and red clothes and to play with girlish or non-gender toys. I am not an absolute with this. If after all this they wish to wear other colors or play with other toys I will be more than happy to provide those too. To me choosing an life career is not gender related topic as I have chosen technical path for myself too.

I think guys have far narrower definition for gender than girls because girls can act like tomboys without any problems but guys couldn’t act like girls without having a lot of problems.

All people have some things in common. They wish to be heard. They wish to contribute to something greater than themselves. They wish to feel valuable and appreciated. These things are not related to culture or gender but they are basic human needs. Differences between individual persons are always far greater than differences between any generic groups.

17

I love the Barbie Princess movies too. We only have “12 Dancing Princesses”, and I love all of the classical music on the DVD, and the strong sense of family that is promoted on it.

Most of the princesses were homeschooled. :wink:

I have a song I wrote a couple of years ago that relates to this and shares my thoughts on royalty. I’ll make a video and share it soon.

18

I would love to see that video Tamsyn.

My son is a little boy, he loves trains, cars and machines. Pretty typical “boy stuff.”
However his favorite color is pink, his favorite show is lalaloopsy. He would watch that everyday if I let him.
And he prefers “girl books” over “boy books.” He loves The Little House series, Alice in Wonderland and recently Amelia Bedelia. We tried a few “boy stories” about pirates, robots. We even read the Jungle Book and his reaction was luke warm at best.

We will slowly be going through and reading Disney stories, then we will watch the movies. I love many of the Disney movies, I especially love the music. We will discuss the traits of the characters, their dreams and aspirations, their motives. There is so much depth there if we just open out children’s minds to it.

Frankly…I don’t understand the Barbie doll thing. I only ever saw her as a doll. I never aspired to look like a Barbie doll anymore than I aspired to look like my giant fat teddy bear. After years of working with kids I haven’t found a kid that wanted to look like their toys either. Sure they wanted to dress up as, or pretend to be while they payed make believe. But not a single one said they wanted skinny waist, big breasts and long legs. A few mentioned the hair. But most didn’t even care for that.
I did used to pretend I was a mermaid a lot while swimming though… And I don’t think I have an unrealistic body image now because I am still missing a tail. :slight_smile:

19

Korrale4kq - lol lol that last bit made me laugh. Each to their own I suppose! :wink:

20

I find the whole identification with a color, say pink for girls and blue for boys, absurd…and utterly hilarious…

Especially since it wasn’t until the end of WWI that boys were ‘assigned’ blue and girls ‘assigned’ pink! Up until then it was the exact opposite lol and even then, the change is attributed to clothing manufacturers and department stores, apparently stemming from the fact that after the first war, most men’s uniforms were blue…thus associating blue with masculinity. And ‘Think Pink’ was an actual marketing campaign that encouraged women to ‘embrace their femininity!’

Prior to the mid 19th century, babies were all dressed in unisex outfits (long dresses!). They were almost always white linen, easily bleached :slight_smile: then pastels arrived on the scene…
Pink was considered a ‘good, strong color’, an appropriate choice for boys,. Blue was considered a softer, more gentle color, ‘dainty’ and appropriate for girls. This even has roots in early Christian tradition as red was associated as male (as was its hue pink), and Blue was associated with the Virgin Mary, so considered feminine.

I am attaching an article from the Smithsonian website that lays out a overly overview of the history, with a nice review to a really well-written book on the subject. I read it while back and considered it a great tool. There are just SO many people in the world who are completely hung up on the idea that their child’s gender identity and future depend up in preference for a color.
And yes, I realize it goes deeper than that, as children identify with those around them. Especially mothers and fathers. This book does a wonderful job of navigating the subject:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html?device=ipad

The book is called Pink and Blue: Telling the Girls From the Boys in America by Jo B. Paoletti

http://www.amazon.com/Pink-and-Blue-ebook/dp/B007A0PHL0/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1368774702&sr=1-1

What will my daughter be? I hope an intelligent, informed, well-educated woman who knows and trusts herself. One capable and willing to look beyond color and stereotypes. Of all kinds :slight_smile:

Food for thought.