Question (or hypothesis if you will) about Anzan

Early Learning Teaching Your Child Math
1

Back in college, I took cognitive psychology which was a class all about the memory (how it works, where it fails, etc). One of things covered, as would be expected in a course about memory, is how to improve the memory.

Typical methods are mnemonics and method of loci among others.

Well, I started wondering today about Anzan and how it might affect mental processing and short term memory (ie right brain). Effectively, the greater the capacity here, the greater the intelligence and therefore greater opportunity to learn.

It seems to me that Anzan builds this mental processing up far beyond the average; I’m not sure if it’s due to giving a construct (mental abacus) which acts like method of loci (but frankly, most of the columns look the same, which would not equate to the loci method) or if it’s just due to working with larger numbers and practicing, or if it’s just using the right brain more. Frankly, there are some people doing anzan that can hold an impressive number of digits in their head and manipulate them quickly.

When I try to work with large numbers in my mind, there comes a point where my mind literally snaps and everything gets garbled up. This same thing happens when I try to absorb new learning material of any kind too rapidly. If my mind snaps, I have to quit for a while before taking up the subject again.

If there were a way to take on more information in quicker fashion without suffering this snap back effect, it would mean, perhaps, faster learning all around.

I’m hoping Tom (aka user Soroban) can give us his personal opinion as to whether or not the use of the soroban and anzan (mental soroban) builds mental processing that has benefits outside of mathematics and into other areas of learning/functioning.

I’m looking mostly for opinion here based on personal experience… or thoughts that any reader might have if my hypothesis seems probable or not. I don’t have enough experience to base a decision, but if I’m right, it would mean anzan would positively affect all areas of learning.

And to make this post more about early learning - I’m specifically talking about boosting right brain power which would theoretically lead to enhanced learning capability; this is something that many on this forum believe to be true.

2

Hi Pokerdad,

Thanks for the great question. I’ve been mulling it over all week and I’ll be updating my answer soon.
I just wanted to know if it would be ok if I used your post on my website. Since I think this is a great question and I want to take my time to write a good response.

Tom

3

Feel free to use all or a portion of the question if you like… whatever works for you.
I’m pretty sure there’s something to what I’m wondering about. The average person can hold 7 bits of information, but dan 10 anzan guys can do like 9 digit (or more) work and when you count how many actual bits of information, it’s at least 18;

4

I watched this and thought of this thread.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6378985927858479238

5

That is an awesome explanation of skill, learning and how it relates to brain development!!

You know it actually does a better job of explaining a lot of what I wanted to say than I ever could have. Great Find!
I’ll follow up soon (sooner now that most of the work’s been done by the video) with some notes I have on how the video’s framework on learning applies specifically to Soroban and Anzan.

Thanks again.
Tom

6

not meaning to hijack the thread, but had to comment: according to http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/, chess star, magnum carlson makes over 1M, thanks to chess - nice! here’s more: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/08/03/chess-genius-carlsen-doubles-money/. also, on the benefits of teaching chess; http://chessbenefits.blogspot.com/, as well as how now it’s becoming mandatory in certain countries to teach in the elementary years - pretty interesting.

7

I’ve seen this video posted here on BK somewhere before - and I watched it all the way through this time. A few things, I thought it was interesting that she struggled when a non-chess player put pieces on there randomly (ie, made no sense and not able to chunk). That does sort of answer my question somewhat… this sort of thing may not translate the way I was describing… BUT, with Anzan, I still can’t shake the thought that these guys process 10 digit numbers against 10 digit numbers (requiring 20 digit memory?)… and still curious if that translates to other areas even if only numerical.

As for chess - it’s a great way to build reasoning skills. It’s a perfect information game (unlike poker) which allows it to work great for that purpose. It can also help for planning & strategizing, and I hope to do a little chess with my young one someday (though I’m massively amateurish) . Of course, I also plan on doing poker with my young one too - which is easier or harder than chess depending on your point of view, for processing through imperfect information and doing the same type of deductive processes. Poker can mimic real life in so many ways (random variables, range of outcomes, range of assumptions, choices of decision, emotional turmoil within yourself and others, etc)… all the things I get to look forward to!! :yes:

8

Hi PokerDad,

You might find the following of interest. The Soroban Experience- http://www.osaka-abacus.or.jp/english/soroban_experience.htm

                                                     Feynman vs The Abacus-    http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/abacus/feynman.html

“I realized something: he doesn’t know numbers. With the abacus, you don’t have to memorize a lot of arithmetic combinations; all you have to do is to learn to push the little beads up and down. You don’t have to memorize 9+7=16; you just know that when you add 9, you push a ten’s bead up and pull a one’s bead down. So we’re slower at basic arithmetic, but we know numbers.”

Chris.

9

Thanks Chris.

I’ve read many of your posts and it’s nice seeing you around here posting again. I will look at these links. One thing I haven’t seen is your posts describing what you’d consider optimal mathematical training… you have a lot of posts, so I’m sure it’s in there. Can you steer me to a thread or post perhaps? would love to read your viewpoint
Thanks

10

Hi PokerDad,

I would need to do a lot of research before answering your question.

This link goes some way towards answering your earlier question about the limitations of visual working memory.
The research seems to indicate that abacus training does not improve perceptual expertise.
http://ladlab.ucsd.edu/pdfs/FrankenBarner.pdf

This 12 year old is working on 3 columns at a time and possibly uses a peg system to recall the final answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmaGRc6FFDE

The level 1, 2 and 3 books appear to include number picture code training
http://www.imaedu.com/

11

Thank you for the article; it was an enjoyable read. I think I’m getting a better picture of my question. So anzan doesn’t seem to translate to an increased capacity of memory in other areas… and even if this 12 year old girl used every single memory trick in the book, it’s pretty darned impressive that she could do all that in about a minute.
Even with the pegging, she’d have to then take the pegs and put them together which would then require yet more calculations (there has to be a carry function when looking at that many digits)
Also, I thought I’d let you know that I’m going to read the Feynman book shortly. It’s waiting for me at the library.

I guess the only question (of significance) for me at this point is if abacus/anzan has detrimental affects on higher math acquisition, or any other detrimental affect along the way. From this article, I didn’t see anything alarming (such as anzan kids couldn’t estimate dots as well as untrained); it just seems (to me anyway) that it’s a fantastic mechanism for computations mentally… something that very few in the US can actually do beyond a few numbers here or there, and at that point… why not? The Feynman excerpt seemed to imply (through generalization) that abacus users could not comprehend estimations… which would be sad if true, but I see no reason why it must be true. Even he was admitting that he was darned lucky the number chosen was so close to the cube of 12. Feynman was almost doing a Jones’ Genius type of thing… was he not?

12

Hi PokerDad,

I agree that her anzan skills are very impressive.

Using the Journey Peg System she would only have to remember 3 images. The carry isn’t a problem as can be seen below.

Working on the columns right to left- 10 rows of 12 digits. Assuming that all digits are 9

The maximum total for any column of three digits is 9990 without considering the carry.

The image for ‘990’ is placed a location 3

The maximum total for the next column of 3 digits is 9999 (max carry of 9)

Image for ‘999’ is placed in location 2

The max possible total for the next column including carry is again 9999

Image for ‘999’ is placed at location 1

Finally, max possible total for the final column is 9,999 This is the first 4 digits of the answer- 9,999,999,999,990

Whilst calculating, the abacus students are not really aware of the intermediate sums, only the answer. The system is based on rigid rules and removes the need for creative thinking. There are frequently several ways to solve a problem and exploring these alternatives and identifying special features deepens understanding.

Chris.

13

I would love to get an alternative viewpoint on this.

Does soroban/abacus/anzan lead to lack of creative thought, esp in mathematics?

I guess it would be difficult to get an unbiased second opinion; the soroban master would not admit to lacking creative thought. Not sure how to answer the question then.

It doesn’t seem to me that mastering abacus absolutely must equal lack of creativity or lack of general number awareness. Sure, there was the one guy in Feynman’s book that seemed to not understand how estimation would get someone really close and then the rest would be easy (this is all told through one person’s viewpoint I might add) - I’d be curious to see what sort of unbiased or even empirical observations have shown.

Going along these lines, would Jones’ Genius lead to massive amounts of number awareness and copious creativity?

Edit: is abacus any different than typical or traditional algorithms (other than the ability to actually perform them in one’s mind)? I realize this has been a whole debate in education for a long time, which is why many have started advocating discovering mathematical principles instead of just teaching them. As someone that learned traditional algorithms, I find this entire line of reasoning extremely weak, but I must also acknowledge that a large percentage of people just “don’t get it” and subsequently hate or perform poorly in math.

14

Wow, this is a great thread. Thanks for starting it Pokerdad. Your questions:
Does soroban/abacus/anzan lead to lack of creative thought, esp in mathematics?
Going along these lines, would Jones’ Genius lead to massive amounts of number awareness and copious creativity?
are so valid that even I am eagerly waiting for someone to respond.

15

Hey guys,

PokerDad your thread is exploding! good job on a great question.

I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the mix. My very biased 2 cents so take it with a grain of salt :slight_smile:

First I’m gonna give you a warning: I think the parents reading these forums are pretty mature and can handle the truth. So, I’m going to give you my honest opinion on this topic (again very biased, big chunks of salt).

What I think I hear from a lot of the comments isn’t just about if Soroban hinders creativity or if Jones enforces it.

It feels like the question that you’re really trying to asking is: “Whats the secret, easy way to guarantee my child succeeds?” or “What’s the shortcut?”
and on some level I’m sure you know that there is no shortcut.
I can not give anyone a guarantee that Soroban will be the first, last and only thing your child needs to be set for life or even set for academia.

With that said, I’ll try to answer the question about creativity.
I think the idea that there is a trade off between the structured learning in Soroban and Creativity is a false dichotomy. PokerDad’s intuitions are spot on.

I’ve been mulling over how I could try to prove that statement (maybe examples of Soroban students going into and excelling in a variety of fields like graphics design, engineering, teaching, business management, mathmatics? or a theoretical argument based on traditionally “creative” brain functions being in close proximity to area’s used for anzan) but they seemed lacking. So, I thought I’d try showing off my own bit of creativity and letting you decide for yourself. I really hope it doesn’t backfire on me LOL

Reading the Feynman story, I actually came to 2 very opposing realizations. First is one that I think most people saw of a man with a Soroban being outcompeted by Feynman and how it exemplifies the limitations of calculation without thought.

But, it occurs to me that you can flip this on it’s head. A mere salesman with limited training (from the story I’m estimating he was about 1st dan?) was able to compete in a mathematical situation with a man the caliber of Richard Feynman. Arguably Feynman is a rare breed of genius that sits at the very top of human intelligence. I would estimate that the number of people alive at this very moment reaching his level of excellence in every subject can’t exceed a thousand. So he is at the top 0.00000017% (1000/6,000,000,000) of all humans. My estimations could be off by a power of 1000 and he would still be in the top .00017%.

In the story the other people in the restaurant were not willing to take up a math challenge. I think this is a common reaction in the general public because they lack the confidence in math. Instead they avoided the risk of possibly losing and shifted it over to a random stranger who (luckily for them) was Feynman.

The salesman didn’t win and may have faced some humiliation, but he was willing to try. Even after losing he didn’t just leave it at that, he asked Feynman to find out why he lost. Think about the emotional resilience necessary to be able to this.

Finally, Feynman seems to believe the salesman’s use of the Soroban to find the cube root of 27 as a sign that he doesn’t understand numbers. And compared to Feynman he clearly does not. But, lets put it into context. What he was doing was: actively doing the calculations necessary to understand Feynman’s explanation. He wasn’t advanced enough to just mentally calculate the cube root of 27 (most people, myself included aren’t: we just have it memorized). The salesman was using the framework of calculation to break down Feynman’s explanation so that it would “make sense” to him.
An example might be if we didn’t know that 2-1 = 1, we could make it make sense to us by doing the reverse operation of 1+1 =2 and logically understand the first to have to be true.

So using Wikipedia’s definition of creativity: Creativity refers to the phenomenon whereby a person creates something new (a product, a solution, a work of art, a novel, a joke, etc.) that has some kind of value. I hope that my “creative” way to look at the Feynman story gives some evidence that Soroban hasn’t drained all my creativity away.

Thanks,
Tom

16

Hi Tom,

I didn’t say that using the Soroban would drain creativity and I apologise if any offence was caused by my earlier post. I had simply made the observation that the system is so effective that deviation from the taught algorithms was not necessary.
It does, however, seem evident that the Soroban does not promote creativity unless the child is encouraged to seek alternative ways to calculate answers.

Chris.

17

Does arithmetic have to be creative?

I’m not saying it can’t be, and I wholeheartedly believe any novel idea coming from a student should be protected and investigated (hey, some of them won’t work). But the investigation of that novel idea would be a creative endeavor that will likely deepen understanding.

For me, an ideal math program would teach the basics in a way that creates deep understanding and quick arithmetic skills (to free the student up to do the more creative work of upper level maths). And at the same time, allows (but does not expect) for innovation.

For me, I don’t plan for the soroban to be the only tool we use for arithmetic. It seems to me to be a useful construct for at least rapid multi-digit mental addition and subtraction, superior to anything else I’m aware of. However, I also want my children to be exposed to other ways to represent quantity. I think the soroban is useful for understanding place value, but that quantity is much more abstract. And to show quantity, I like to have more available. Also with multiplication, division, etc., I think there are other manipulatives that are perhaps easier for someone to understand and “see” the concepts than the soroban. But it doesn’t make the soroban bad at calculation.

Anyway, I really am only getting my feet wet with all of this, so take it with a grain of salt.

18

I really appreciate the discussion!

I would like to point out that I wasn’t saying that Chris was calling out anything or anyone - Chris likes to make you think; and I believe this is a big value… and was engaging me as I asked more questions. LOVE IT.

Arvi, about the JonesGenius producing massive creativity… maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. My question was fallacious in nature. There was an implication (though maybe I took it too far) that soroban use was so rigid that it hindered the growth of creativity. Even if this were true, it wouldn’t necessarily translate that JonesGenius (at the upper levels I’m mostly talking about here) would actually CAUSE (or foster) creativity.

BUT

I have a feeling that it does! (especially the younger stuff, with the manipulates)

I think Tom brought up some awesome points; there’s no magic bullet anywhere, and just learning soroban or anzan may be an awesome way to learn how to calculate, but might not be enough ON ITS OWN to achieve the desired outcome (whatever that outcome is); there’s no shortcut to becoming awesome at math: in calculating, understanding, blending with other things, applying, etc etc.

Needless to say, I’m very pleased with the discussion… karma for everyone ITT!! yippee!

Oh… and Maquenzie, good points about the investigation. This is called depth of processing. If someone discovers or really has to process it, they tend to understand it better and remember it better than if it’s just spoon fed. There’s a whole movement in education around this, and in math also - but this cuts both ways, I don’t think everything has to be discovered either… geesh, if we treated all knowledge this way, we sure wouldn’t be advancing very rapidly :wink:

19

I actually wrote more about it, but erased it in an attempt to stay on topic (ish…). But, that was why I qualified it with a (but does not expect) innovation. I think there can be a happy medium. It would absolutely take forever if all knowledge had to be completely self-constructed. In my childhood, though, I “invented” a “new” way to subtract (actually quite similar to soroban which is one reason I love it so…I used number bonds of ten and worked from left to right without needing to make marks showing “borrowing”). I couldn’t for the life of me pay attention in class lectures so I always made up my own ways to solve the problems (and it was fun!). Well, I got in loads of trouble for not showing my work and on multiple occasions, accused of cheating. So, perhaps I have personal reasons for saying innovation should be encouraged and investigated.

HOWEVER, not everyone is that into it, and I don’t think every child should have to invent it for themselves…just that when it does occur, it should be protected, investigated, nourished. I think alternate algorithms are fun, but most people do not. I also don’t think they should be a part of the average math education.

20

On the shortcut front, I fully expect it to be hard work. The shortcut I guess I’d be looking for is making less mistakes in finding the right angle, approach, tools, etc…instead of finding out when it’s too late.

I’ve used 3 different phonics curriculums with my 5 year old. If I had started with the one that we ended up settling on at the beginning, we’d be done by now. That’s the kind of “shortcut” I’m looking for. I’d rather put all the time and effort into something that was more thoughtfully fitted for us.

But if there is some kind of magic shortcut, let me know that’d be awesome. lol