We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

Early Learning Early Learning General Discussions
81

Hi Nee1,

“Apart from Sowell’s ‘Inside American Education’, what other 5-6 books did you read? Can you paste their titles? I’ve read Dumbing Us Down' by John Gatto and Dumbing Down Our Kids - Why American Kids Feel Good About Themselves but Can’t Read, Write, or Add’ by Charles Sykes.”

That’s a good set of books you list up there. Sykes was the second name that came to my mind. To be honest, I don’t remember the others, and I’ve long since given them away. If I were doing it now, though, I’d go to amazon, look up “Inside American Education” and then see the books they suggest, which are typically similar in philosophy - also read the comments, as they often point you to good stuff. But given the above books, I think you’re about set. You’ll see that these books are very good in getting you in right mindset to go against 90% plus of the country and educate your child outside of “the system”. The actual instruction, however, is not covered in those books. For that I’m not as sure, as I basically winged it, and didn’t have a manual to go by.

“I’ve also read a lot of Harold Stevenson’s cross-cultural studies on academic performance between nations and I shared my insights on this thread - http://forum.brillkids.com/general-discussion-b5/why-japanese-and-chinese-kids-outperform-american-children-(research-article)/. And this one http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-math/proportion-of-el-time-devoted-to-math-(split-from-2-year-old-thread)/msg89195/”

Interesting, I’ll check that out.

“I’m in Europe and I’m seeing the same trends in schools here - the ‘feel good’ and ‘self-esteem’ syndrome, the substitution of solid academic content for indoctrination, etc. At least by reading these books, I’ll know what exactly is going on in those schools and how to prepare myself in case my kid ends up in one of them.”

Awesome! You’re keeping ahead of these clowns - they all follow the same template. Once you know that and understand that, they cannot defeat you. They can defeat 99% of the other people, but not you. So I need to warn you - you will be looked at as a total nutcase over there (it’s bad enough here, but you guys are still decades behind us in the race to the bottom, so people there still respect schools). You cannot, ever, let that get to you. You also should not talk much about what you know, because you’ll find yourself out of friends very quickly. Nope…you’re just a concerned parent with some spare time to help your children.

I remember the beginning of the self-esteem movement here very well. Dr. Sowell used to always say: “Look at those thugs on the corner, the way they act, the sneakers they wear. Do they look depressed and lacking self-esteem? Heck no, they have plenty of it - all unearned, but plenty of it” There never was a “self-esteem” problem with kids, but it was a great way for the education system to excuse failure. After all, who wants to hurt a kid’s self-esteem.

82

Hi again Nee1,

I’m reading the first link you posted and they pretty much spelled out why David got so far ahead:

“American mothers estimated that on weekdays their first-graders spent an average of 14 minutes a day on homework; the daily average for Chinese first- graders was 77 minutes, and for Japanese, 37 minutes.”

My first response, to myself was “I guess this is the difference”. And it really is. The question being when a kid gets home at 3:30 in the afternoon, and does not go to bed for another 5 to 6 hours, is taking 2 hours or so of that time to actually educate him all that bad? Or should that time be spent watching TV or playing video games?

“For fifth- graders, the estimate for the American children was 46 minutes a day…”

I also noticed this. As David moved up in grade level, he would get homework, but much of it was simply useless. It was art projects and science projects. The damn things took a lot of time, and most of the time I would do it myself (and pretty lousy, by the way). They accomplished nothing, but I suspect they were meant to “keep the kids occupied” or something. In any case, I bring this up because at the younger ages, before, probably 4th grade, kids have a boatload of free time, during which they can learn reading and math, as David did. But as they get older, if they’re in just about any school, they will start getting hit-up with “busy-work” which will really cut down on that time.

83

Thanks a lot for your response. I can see his hobby is still related to learning. Enjoying programming at 8 is impressive as most children at that age would spend their time on video games. Programming looks like just the right alternative to this unwanted behavior. It simply makes computer time more productive.

Now to define what “neighbor” is in our case, I’d say it’s just at the city level. Sorry if my PS was a bit ambiguous. The reason I mentioned that was because I read about the community college hints with big interest. Sharing how you worked with the educational system in Texas helped me shape my vision. Even though my son may take a different path from yours, I know at least that there are ways to accommodate his educational needs. BTW, he loves math and we are doing simple addition and subtraction using RightStart Math and other programs and manipulatives (especially dominoes). Still a long way to go and we are progressing slowly, but what matters the most to me is to make math part of his daily life, sth that he will do naturally… Well, I hope so!

84

You know I am not game to read any of those books! I work in education, I see it every day. If I read anymore I might just quit, give up and teach my kids gardening instead!
In all fairness Australia isn’t as bad as other places. My kids get a good education, not good enough for me but EVERY kid in their year can read at least. I also pay for private schooling for a reason. Same one as you did Robert. Yes there are all types in the world but that doesn’t mean I want my kids mixing with them! I choose my friends wisely ( and my work environment for that matter) and I expect my kids to choose their friends wisely too. I will help them learn to do that by paying to get a better melting pot to choose from. To ensure you all know I am not racist both of my girls have “coloured” best friends. It’s not the ethnicity I am avoiding, it’s mostly the parents empossed attitudes towards education and self discipline.
Sadly I can clearly see many of the people I work with would be better teachers with more training and flexibility with reporting. I think the training they get is pathetic at best. Any of the good teachers do their research elsewhere OUTSIDE of their degree. ( places like here are a great start :biggrin: )
Anyway, yep I have the iPod covered. I know exactly how to use them :slight_smile: and she hasn’t asked for a touch ( although that’s probably what I will buy her) we have no concerns about her having access to the wifi, she is honest and good right to the heart. And too busy to waste time online anyway. Now the second child? Well it’ll be years before she gets access to the wifi! lol

85

Thanks for the insights, Robert, especially the one on homework. Like you, I believe in real solid academic work, not busy work. And I also strongly believe that a parent should be in charge of his/her child’s education, whether the kids are enrolled in school or not. Don’t leave it entirely to the schools, you may be shocked at the outcome. Most parents, when advised to read aloud to their kids and teach them stuff at home, ask 'what is the job of the schools then?’ and refuse to do it. Soon, the kids start having problems in school and start failing. The parents now start undertaking remedial work to get the kids to catch up. Oh well. I wish that had been done from the start, it would have saved the poor kids so much trauma. Dr Richard Gentry, an expert on childhood literacy makes the same point in his blog article titled ‘A Lack of Parent Engagement Helps Create Failing Schools’. Link - http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/raising-readers-writers-and-spellers/201107/lack-parent-engagement-helps-create-failing-schools.

And yes, I like your attitude that study time is study time, not play time. Once you finish with your work, you can go and play. My son is very young, and I use the same approach with him. Why? Because I’m trying to inculcate good habits of perseverance and concentration when working. Don’t confuse work with play, son. We work, and if you can sit still, we’ll finish the work in very little time, and you’ll have the rest of the day to play. Especially in this era of ADHD, it is very important for a child to be able to sit still for several minutes or even hours to do work.

Below is an excerpt from ‘Dumbing Down our Kids - Why American Children Feel Good about Them but Can’t Read, Write or Add’ by Charles Sykes.
Sykes quotes extensively from Harold Stevenson’s cross-cultural studies and here is an excerpt from pages 296 – 297.

``In his cross-cultural studies of schools in the United States, Japan, and China, researcher Harold Stevenson attributed significant differences in achievement levels not simply to differing approaches to schooling, but also to the very different approaches to their children’s education by Asian and American parents. “Chinese and Japanese children know that they will have free time only after they have completed the day’s schoolwork,” he found. “In American families, leisure activities and schoolwork compete for the child’s time (17).” American parents do not like what they regard as excessive homework and frequently express distaste for schoolwork if it interferes with other activities they think should be given equal or even greater value.

The implications of this attitude are considerable. “Daily lessons cannot be mastered without review and practice,” noted Stevenson, “and American students cannot gain this experience as long as teachers are reluctant to increase the amount of homework and parents and children hold unfavorable views about its value.(18)”. But the attitude about homework is merely one reflection of the different emphases Asian and American parents place on education. Americans, for instance, place heavy stress on preschool education, and American parents seem to be deeply involved in making sure their children get a reasonable head start. In contrast, Asian parents regard children under the age of six as enjoying an “age of innocence” and do not push younger children much at all. While nine of ten American mothers of kindergartners teach their children the alphabet at home, fewer than a third of Japanese and Chinese mothers teach symbols to their preschoolers. Only 36 percent of Japanese mothers teach numbers to their preschoolers, in sharp contrast to the 90 percent of American mothers who teach their preschool children numbers (19). To an observer unversed in the cultural differences, it might appear that it is the American families that value education more highly, while their Asian counterparts pursue a far more casual and relaxed approach to learning.

But when children turn six and enter first grade, there is a dramatic change. For the Japanese and Chinese parents, the age of innocence is replaced by the “age of reason,” when a child enters elementary school. Parents who were previously "nurturant and permissive become authorities who demand obedience, respect, and adherence to their rules and goals (20) ". From their laissez-faire attitude toward education, Asian parents now become intensely involved with their children, helping and monitoring homework and providing a home environment in which schoolwork unquestionably is the highest priority.

At the same moment, however, that Asian parents are becoming more deeply involved with their children’s education, American parents ironically are withdrawing. When a child turns six in Japan, his schooling becomes a parent’s top responsibility; when a child turns six in the United States, parents tend to entrust their educational future to the schools and to his teachers (21). Japanese parents see the task of learning just beginning at the same moment that American parents see their job as coming more or less to an end. For too many Americans, Stevenson found, “schoolwork is considered to be the responsibility of teachers and students, rather than a major concern for parents.” In this country, the beginning of elementary school is “not accompanied by strong parental demands for academic excellence or devotion to homework and demands do not increase much during the succeeding years of elementary school (22)”.

This perhaps explains the story one mother told me as I was working on this book: She had attended a parents meeting at her child’s elementary school. At the meeting some of the other parents complained that their children were being given too much homework and that it was interfering with their sports, and even cutting into the time they had for watching, television. Other mothers admitted-apparently without embarrassment-that they had done their children’s homework for them, to spare them both time and anxiety. The assumption that seemed to dominate the parents’ meeting, the mother said, was that schoolwork had become a distraction from things that many of the parents believed to be the main business of a child’s life. They were not concerned that their children were not learning-they were annoyed because expectations were too high. Their views were probably not representative either of a majority of parents at the woman’s school nor did they reflect the attitude of most American parents. But they are undoubtedly widespread; most teachers can tell stories of parents who complained about excessive homework, low marks, high standards.

Unless American parents raise those expectations, it is unlikely that America’s schools will ever raise them unilaterally. Mediocrity, unfortunately, is contagious. But so is excellence. ‘’ QUOTE ENDS.

86

To A_BC,

“I can see his hobby is still related to learning. Enjoying programming at 8 is impressive as most children at that age would spend their time on video games. Programming looks like just the right alternative to this unwanted behavior. It simply makes computer time more productive.”

Yes, and to be honest, it seems to be a push for him between programming and video games - he loves both. But he’s impressed some real hard-hitters with his programming (i.e., he’s good at it and may start his career there, rather than in engineering). He just loves computers.

“Now to define what “neighbor” is in our case, I’d say it’s just at the city level.”

Ok, thanks. It wouldn’t be fair if you knew me personally, but I didn’t know who you were. Being a non-acquaintance on these terms is fine with me.

“The reason I mentioned that was because I read about the community college hints with big interest. Sharing how you worked with the educational system in Texas helped me shape my vision.”

Yes, it’s doable. The Community Colleges here like having advanced kids. But, unfortunately, the kid who followed David, at his school, was a bit full of himself, from what I’ve heard. So the person there who went out of her way for both David and his successor is going to be more careful (and selective) in the future. As I’ve said before, there’s a good reason why I (figuratively) beat it into him that he was nothing special, instead just a kid who started early. It’s critical that any kid in his situation understand it. But yes (to all of you out there) he does know he’s special - once in a while I’ll show him an article about a kid starting college at Age 14 (for example) and we’ll both laugh and call him a “slacker” and wonder why they’re wasting ink on him (since David started at 11). It’s a lot of fun. I got him to the point where he can have fun making jokes about others, but never in a situation where it might hurt them (and thus hurt or embarrass himself).

“Even though my son may take a different path from yours, I know at least that there are ways to accommodate his educational needs.”

There are, but always remember they, the college, is doing you the favor. It’s a lot easier to get arrogant and say that “My kid is special !!!” Well guess what - to a parent EVERY kid is special, and teachers and others have heard it over and over again. In one of David’s classes when he was young (before college), my wife politely asked the teacher to try to give David some work that would challenge him, rather than grade-level work. The teacher basically told her to shove it. She was upset, and I told her exactly what I just wrote, above. The teacher likely had heard it all from parents and was not about to get pushed around by another doting parent. I told my wife to forget it. Needless to say, my wife was right, and a week later a freaked-out teacher was very nice to her (after getting to know David). In another case, at the Community College, David wiped out on some stairs and broke some teeth. It was slippery, he was in a hurry to get to class, and he had a heavy backpack on. We asked for the police report - they hesitated on giving to us, because they thought we’d sue them. Heck, I was afraid he’d be kicked out of school there for being too little to navigate the campus (at that time he was very small for his age…now he’s normal sized). I promised them it was just for insurance and they were relieved. How the heck could I think of suing them, after what they did for him? But their fear was understandable - but as parents, we have to do everything possible for the school to feel comfortable with our little guys. Remember, it is much, much, easier for them to say “sorry, too young”.

“BTW, he loves math and we are doing simple addition and subtraction using RightStart Math and other programs and manipulatives (especially dominoes). Still a long way to go and we are progressing slowly, but what matters the most to me is to make math part of his daily life, sth that he will do naturally… Well, I hope so!”"

No comment on that curriculum, either way. I’ve posted my approach. The only thing to remember is that math is not something a little kid runs into much, outside of an academic environment, so the learning must be maintained there. Reading is just the opposite - it’s everywhere.

87

To Mandabplus3,

“You know I am not game to read any of those books! I work in education, I see it every day. If I read anymore I might just quit, give up and teach my kids gardening instead!”
So you’re already there. I agree – no need for the books. The books are more for people who need some support, because going against “the system” is not a lot different than that guy in Tiananmen Square who stood in front of the tank. You know that you’re putting everything you have on the line, so you need to be ready to make your case. But if you’re there, already, then no problem.

“In all fairness Australia isn’t as bad as other places. My kids get a good education, not good enough for me but EVERY kid in their year can read at least.”
That is impressive. Being able to read seems to be an afterthought now in our system.

“ I also pay for private schooling for a reason. Same one as you did Robert.”
Yep, you must fill in the holes, and do it before the kid is behind. You are doing great here.

“ Yes there are all types in the world but that doesn’t mean I want my kids mixing with them! I choose my friends wisely ( and my work environment for that matter) and I expect my kids to choose their friends wisely too. I will help them learn to do that by paying to get a better melting pot to choose from. To ensure you all know I am not racist both of my girls have “coloured” best friends. It’s not the ethnicity I am avoiding, it’s mostly the parents empossed attitudes towards education and self discipline.”
I doubt anyone on this site has any problems with anyone based on skin color. Obviously that’s not the point. There are plenty of crappy white people and there are plenty of very classy blacks, Hispanics, etc. We (thankfully) still get to choose who we associate with – there really isn’t a reason for any of us to force our kids to associate with drug dealers and other losers…just to be able to say that they understand ‘diversity’.

“Sadly I can clearly see many of the people I work with would be better teachers with more training and flexibility with reporting. I think the training they get is pathetic at best.”
That’s only part of it. The biggest problem, at least here, is that they are “education” majors. They chose education because they hated math, and probably hated science too. Yet they are forced to teach it. It would be unreasonable to expect decent results from people that hate what they’re doing (at least regarding math, and probably science). One must take that into account when you put your precious child on that big yellow bus.

“ Any of the good teachers do their research elsewhere OUTSIDE of their degree. ( places like here are a great start big grin)”
Yes, but at least here, they have zero interest in us. They are absolutely convinced that they know everything necessary to ‘educate’ a child. Dr. Sowell makes that quite clear. The ones that actually do a good job are either about to retire or about to get fired. The system is rigged against them, and it gets worse, almost by the day (with the latest being the “Common Core Curriculum”, that nearly all schools will adopt).

“Anyway, yep I have the iPod covered. we have no concerns about her having access to the wifi, she is honest and good right to the heart.”
Sorry, but that worries me. When my kid spent a college semester playing video games, rather than studying, to the point of lying to me about never get his crappy test scores back and nearly flunking out of school (he had complained and complained that we didn’t give him enough freedom, and we didn’t trust him – so we let him go that semester), I didn’t get mad at him, I just explained to him that he was powerless to prevent the people that designed these games from taking over his brain. They are experts at it. There was absolutely nothing he could do. It was, literally, no different from heroin.
Do not ever think that you come first, because you don’t. Facebook will always win. Video games will always win. Now, as I said at the beginning, you paid nothing for my advice, and you are welcome to ignore me (or get mad at me) – but I will give my advice (for others, at least) based on exactly what I’ve experienced, and it was rough because it dragged down his GPA and I never had a chance to do anything about it (i.e., I had no clue since I was lied to – the only time). So when she goes to bed with the IPOD in her hands, it might be a good idea to shut off the wifi, or better yet, to have that IPOD in your possession.

“ And too busy to waste time online anyway. Now the second child? Well it’ll be years before she gets access to the wifi! LOL”
Now that one I can agree with.

88

To Nee1,

“Thanks for the insights, Robert, especially the one on homework. Like you, I believe in real solid academic work, not busy work. And I also strongly believe that a parent should be in charge of his/her child’s education, whether the kids are enrolled in school or not. Don’t leave it entirely to the schools, you may be shocked at the outcome.”
You’re welcome. Later on you have a quote from Sykes that mentions parents doing their kid’s homework. Well guess what – if my kid could get another section of Saxon Math done in lieu of doing some useless homework project, guess who does the math and guess who does the ‘project’. I’ll make the call as to whether the homework is helping my kid, and if it’s not, I’ll do it for him. To do otherwise is to have blind faith in the same teachers that are part of this country’s decline. To me, that’s part of taking charge of your kid’s education.

“Most parents, when advised to read aloud to their kids and teach them stuff at home, ask 'what is the job of the schools then?’ and refuse to do it. Soon, the kids start having problems in school and start failing. The parents now start undertaking remedial work to get the kids to catch up.”
So true, but here’s the fallacy: You have to learn the code words. When a teacher asks for parents to “be involved” at least these days, it means that they expect the parent to teach the material to the kid, because the teacher (for whatever reason) is not doing so. If parents understood that, there would a lot less kids that are “behind”. So yes, I suspect that something like 80% of the kids that are “having problems” learning are only having the problems because they are neither being taught in school, nor taught at home. Asian (including Indian) parents figured this out long ago and thus have zero expectations for their schools and, instead, take care of getting their kids educated outside of school. That is the primary reason they do so well (having higher than average IQs helps too, but the kids still need an education, somewhere).

“ Oh well. I wish that had been done from the start, it would have saved the poor kids so much trauma.”
Precisely, and you hit my biggest fear as a parent. I was scared to death of my kid getting behind – because I know what that’s like and it’s not fun and it take probably 10 times as much effort to catch back up, as it would have taken just to keep up. Parents must, never, ever, let their kids fall behind. But don’t take this personal – because there are very few people in this country that will tell you that your kid is almost certain to fall behind if he doesn’t get educated outside of what we call “school”.

“ Dr Richard Gentry, an expert on childhood literacy makes the same point in his blog article titled ‘A Lack of Parent Engagement Helps Create Failing Schools’.”
I have mixed feelings on this. I think we spend more than enough money on education such that parents should not have to do anything. But that is not the case, as I’ve mentioned in the earlier post. I also have trouble understanding how “parental engagement” can overcome curricula that is design to fail the kids. The only way parental engagement can work is if parents take the approach that I took, and that home schoolers take, which is to assume that no one, other than them, will be educating their kids – because they are about 80% right if they believe that.

“And yes, I like your attitude that study time is study time, not play time. Once you finish with your work, you can go and play. My son is very young, and I use the same approach with him. Why? Because I’m trying to inculcate good habits of perseverance and concentration when working. Don’t confuse work with play, son. We work, and if you can sit still, we’ll finish the work in very little time, and you’ll have the rest of the day to play. Especially in this era of ADHD, it is very important for a child to be able to sit still for several minutes or even hours to do work.”
Sounds good there. If you have the priorities right, your kids will get the education they need, and will still have a good deal of free time. It just has to be set up right. If the kid is running around playing all afternoon (not that they do that anymore, but hypothetically), it’s not really fair to hit up with two rounds of Saxon in the evening. In other words, do the math first, then the other stuff.

" American parents do not like what they regard as excessive homework and frequently express distaste for schoolwork if it interferes with other activities they think should be given equal or even greater value.
Homework aside, I even see Saxon parents trading off things like dancing and figure skating against learning math. That is the right of the parents, but, in my opinion, they’re taking some risk. Not knowing how to dance will not cripple a kid’s future (as I can attest to), but not knowing reading and math will. It makes me cringe. I was teaching reading to some 4 year old friends of David. But they couldn’t make it over much, because of other things, like violin (believe it or not) and gymnastics. They never had a chance to match David…and only because of that (they were actually smarter than him).

“Asian parents regard children under the age of six as enjoying an "age of innocence"…But when children turn six and enter first grade, there is a dramatic change. For the Japanese and Chinese parents, the age of innocence is replaced by the “age of reason,” when a child enters elementary school. Parents who were previously "nurturant and permissive become authorities who demand obedience, respect, and adherence to their rules and goals (20) ".
This was interesting. One of the things that confused me, believe it or not, was why David was able to run circles not just around American kids (which doesn’t take much), but around kids all over the world. This helps explain it. By the time David was 6 years old, he was reading at an adult level and was years and years ahead in math. I had him learning during those 2.5 years, from Age 3.5 until Age 6, while Asian countries don’t do that. Good to know.

“For too many Americans, Stevenson found, “schoolwork is considered to be the responsibility of teachers and students, rather than a major concern for parents.”
That’s it. Put junior on that big, yellow, bus and never have to worry about him. That may have worked 40 years ago, but the schools are run and taught by a different bunch now.

“This perhaps explains the story one mother told me as I was working on this book: She had attended a parents meeting at her child’s elementary school. At the meeting some of the other parents complained that their children were being given too much homework and that it was interfering with their sports, and even cutting into the time they had for watching, television.”
Look at this as an opportunity – if parents have this attitude, then it’s that much easier for your kids to get a high score on the SAT or Medical Board Exam, since they grade on a curve. Don’t worry about other parents, and certainly don’t let their problems bring your kids down.

“Other mothers admitted-apparently without embarrassment-that they had done their children’s homework for them, to spare them both time and anxiety.”}
I freely admit that too. If the homework is useless, and my kid could otherwise be learning, then I did his homework.

Bottom line here – none of this matters when one takes the education of their kids into their own hands.

89

I wont ignore you, or get mad at your advice. I like to keep an open mind. For this kid at this time I have no concerns but I am not stupid or nieve and I know at some point in the future the lure of Facebook will win out. College is a few years off but puberty isn’t nearly far enough away! I will take the warning and remember the wise words of Robert :wink:
For the record she is getting her 2 lessons a day done no problem. Some days she does more. It is eating into her reading time. But to be honest she can’t get much better at that anyway. The reading time is just for story exposure and we still find some time each day to read the classics together, just a bit less time than previously. I am happy with this trade off as I think math is more important to her, both now and long term.
We ( her and I) arnt prepared to drop the gymnastics as she is good enough to go all the way. Gymnastics is what makes her heart sing. So the math just has to fitin around it. She is too bright to just be a gymnastics coach for life so the math is to open other doors and opportunities.
it’s been really great reading through and getting all the details of how and why you did it Robert. I shall probably refer back hear for years to come! Thanks

90

This is so true! My brother is 11 and just started high school. His middle school was very good - they got top marks on all the government check-ups and they had a high percentage of kids doing really well. BUT my mum complained most weeks about one or more pieces of homework where he had to essentially learn the material at home to review in class time! Now, we live in a good area and most of the parents are bothered about their children’s education (though the majority seem content to pay for after-school tutors and Kumon rather than sit down with the kids themselves). I am sure that is the sole reason that “teaching” in this way is of any use.

I am teaching my son to read, but I am not really worried about it. He is interested and even with little help should be reading long before he’s due for school. There will always be material enough to encourage a nervous/lazy reader to challenge themselves (I seem to remember my other brother reading nothing but James Bond and computer manuals for a few years).

There is very little that will encourage a weak mathematician to become a strong one. The schools won’t help - they teach twenty different ways to add up, not one of them being in any way efficient! That is something that really worries me. I tutor a little boy who is not great at maths. It would be immensely helpful if his parents would work with him to learn his times tables, but I guess that is what they want me for. What really bothers me is that he gets really nervous if I try to show him the (more efficient) way that I work out the sums. He spends most of the lesson trying to explain how he has been taught (and it is usually a different way each week), because he doesn’t understand how to add in columns and won’t try since he’ll never need it at school!

Whether I send my son to school or not, he will be learning maths from me. I expect he will be many years ahead of his peers, who will spend the first term of school learning to add the numbers 1-5. I am determined that he will enjoy maths. I have been at a point were doing maths was painful. I was told by my maths teachers that I was useless and a failure. Three years out of school, I took a psychological test that told me I was actually very mathematically-minded and I re-learned my past enjoyment of maths. I am now capable to pre-university level and actually find complex algebra problems fun (much the same way others enjoy a crossword). I never want my son to go through that.

91

Ok two more questions.
Will some clever person list the order to travel through the books in?
I am thinking it’s K, 1, 2,3 ( is there a 4?) for the early years that we are not particularly recommending.
Then 5/4. 6/5. 7/6. 8/7? After that it’s a bit ambiguous ? Algebra 1/2 algebra 2…??? Does the physics tie in with the math taught or is it a seperate curriculum? I figured I had the next three years covered so I wasn’t too worried but at the pace we are now traveling I need to start hunting for more books. Especially if I want the older editions.
Next question. Robert why do you think they stuffed up the newer editions? What’s different? How different? At some point I am sure I won’t have a choice and will have to use one of the new ones, once the hens teeth fall out! lol Also if possible to know what edition did they change at?

92

Thank you again, Robert. I’m learning a LOT from you.

You made a very insightful remark about misplacement of priorities. You said:

``Homework aside, I even see Saxon parents trading off things like dancing and figure skating against learning math. That is the right of the parents, but, in my opinion, they’re taking some risk. Not knowing how to dance will not cripple a kid’s future (as I can attest to), but not knowing reading and math will. It makes me cringe. I was teaching reading to some 4 year old friends of David. But they couldn’t make it over much, because of other things, like violin (believe it or not) and gymnastics. They never had a chance to match David…and only because of that (they were actually smarter than him).’’

You are not the first person to tell me this. Dr Miles Jones of Jones Geniuses said the exact same thing during one of his early learning seminars. He strongly recommended that parents focus on the major, which are the 3R’s (that is Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic). According to him, every other thing is an add-on (or a hobby). I’d since made major modifications to my priorities as regards my kid’s education ever since he said this. And you’ve confirmed his words with your experience. Thank you.

It’s interesting to know that David was able to get ahead because you focused on the major stuff, i.e., math and reading. And in an earlier post, you did mention Amy Chua (Tiger Mom)'s piano and violin priorities as been a bit out of place. You said:

``I agree with you on Tiger Mom, in general. You can see from above that Ms. Chau and I agreed that the kids are the last ones that should be setting the agenda. But it wasn't like life was pure hell for David, he had a lot of fun, even sleepovers with friends, did get to play with his toys a lot - but did not have much television - that was where I took his time from.

I think her (Amy’s) fixation with music is overkill, and I had to deal with the exact same thing, as my (Asian) wife also insisted that David learn Piano and Violin. He did, pretty well, but screamed about it…and I, at most, reluctantly supported my wife (to keep the marriage together), but never thought it was worth a dime. And it wasn’t - no one that I’ve ever interviewed with has cared about whether I can play music (and I can’t)…and David had reading and math down-cold well before playing those things - so that rationalization didn’t work either.’’

I agree. I’ve gone for several interviews in my life and no one asked me if I could play the piano or not. That is a hobby, not the main thing, except one is aiming to become a professional musician. While one may be able to get about in the world without knowing how to dance, sing, play piano, do sports, or speak multiple languages, one cannot get about (or go places) without a very solid grasp of math, reading, and writing. Except the child will want to make a career of these other things, I currently focus my limited time and energy on what will help the child through life - which is math, reading, and writing. Yes, those other things are important, but I treat them as add-ons, not the main stuff. Since Dr Jones shared those insights, I’d refocused my energies completely. Thank you for chiming in with your experience.

Could you elaborate more on this? You are always saying the most insightful things, giving me lots of food for thought. Thank you so, so much for joining us on this forum. You’ve impacted more minds than you think.

93

Mandabplus3,

"I wont ignore you, or get mad at your advice. I like to keep an open mind. For this kid at this time I have no concerns but I am not stupid or naive and I know at some point in the future the lure of Facebook will win out. College is a few years off but puberty isn’t nearly far enough away! I will take the warning and remember the wise words of Robert”
Thank you very much. Believe it or not, I was worried most of the day how you would take it. I hit you very, very, hard, but you can see it was from the heart, based on what I went through. Even David wasn’t very happy to have that portion of his life put out in public. You’ve been warned, and you’re not showing any signing of dismissing it – so you will do great with your kids.

“For the record she is getting her 2 lessons a day done no problem. Some days she does more. It is eating into her reading time. But to be honest she can’t get much better at that anyway.”
Exactly, and I know the feeling. Not long ago, based on this thread, I asked myself and David what I could have done differently, in the context of sight words, to even get him further ahead. We both came up totally blank. His reading was approaching a decade ahead of his age level – there was nothing left that could have made it better. So I agree, you’re done with reading and she, like David, will take it from there – and she will find her own time – don’t worry about it – your job is done here. It’s also awesome that you’re getting the two lessons per day. As I’ve said, be sure to do every, single problem, and make sure she’s finally able to do every one, before advancing to the next section.

“The reading time is just for story exposure and we still find some time each day to read the classics together, just a bit less time than previously. I am happy with this trade off as I think math is more important to her, both now and long term.”
And it’s not a tradeoff. I’m convinced that the later a kid learns math, the slower it comes. So it’s a no-brainer, you do the math, just like you say. She’ll have more than enough time to pick up the classics or anything else she wants to read. And she will lots and lots and lots of time to do so, with math effectively out of the way.

“We ( her and I) arnt prepared to drop the gymnastics as she is good enough to go all the way. Gymnastics is what makes her heart sing. So the math just has to fitin around it. She is too bright to just be a gymnastics coach for life so the math is to open other doors and opportunities.”
Exactly. And if she can keep up two Saxon sections a day with gymnastics, then you’re all set. David didn’t just do math, he did Karate, baseball, being with friends (including sleepovers), violin and piano (of which he hated – he got that from me, LOL). As long as she’s not booked solid in her afternoons and weekends, she’ll be fine for math.

“It’s been really great reading through and getting all the details of how and why you did it Robert. I shall probably refer back here for years to come! Thanks"
Thank you also. I really appreciate your class, considering what I had written. You will have a very happy parenthood, at least we have. Our kid is crazy about us, both because of his early learning and because we gave him clear rules all the way through - he knows enough kids (and adults) that weren’t that lucky.

94

To MummyRoo,

“This is so true! My brother is 11 and just started high school. His middle school was very good - they got top marks on all the government check-ups and they had a high percentage of kids doing really well. BUT my mum complained most weeks about one or more pieces of homework where he had to essentially learn the material at home to review in class time! Now, we live in a good area and most of the parents are bothered about their children’s education (though the majority seem content to pay for after-school tutors and Kumon rather than sit down with the kids themselves). I am sure that is the sole reason that “teaching” in this way is of any use.”
That’s basically it, and sad to say, it’s political. It is their dream to equalize things, among genders, races, and whatever. Once you accept that, things make sense. Why teach multiplication tables if some kids (of certain races) will have trouble learning it? Easier instead just to give all the kids calculators – nothing can equalize things more than having every kid using the same calculator. Just keep that in mind, and you’re fine. I looked at David’s schooling for two things: (1) Day care – to give my wife a break; (2) To fill in the gaps in stuff like science and history. School worked fine there. But I was not about to ever trust them with teaching him reading or maths.

“I am teaching my son to read, but I am not really worried about it. He is interested and even with little help should be reading long before he’s due for school.”
Keep that up, and don’t let off. It only took David 6 weeks to learn to read (at age 3.5) – and then I worked with him for another 6 months or so to get him near adult level. Once you’re there, you’re done. So just get it out of the way and you won’t have to think about it anymore.

“There is very little that will encourage a weak mathematician to become a strong one. The schools won’t help - they teach twenty different ways to add up, not one of them being in any way efficient! That is something that really worries me. I tutor a little boy who is not great at maths. It would be immensely helpful if his parents would work with him to learn his times tables, but I guess that is what they want me for. What really bothers me is that he gets really nervous if I try to show him the (more efficient) way that I work out the sums. He spends most of the lesson trying to explain how he has been taught (and it is usually a different way each week), because he doesn’t understand how to add in columns and won’t try since he’ll never need it at school!”
I’m sorry to hear all that – I sure hope the parents with younger kids are reading this. He basically needs to be deprogrammed now and that is not easy, nor 100% effective. That’s why I was dead-set to not only keep my kid up, but to get him 2 years ahead. That was my initial goal in maths, and it was based on him being far enough ahead that no matter what the schools tried to teach him, he already knew the right way, and would be proficient at it. Obviously, David got much further ahead than that, but the concept was still there – I taught him everything (through pre-Calc) and did it before anyone could screw with his brain.

“Whether I send my son to school or not, he will be learning maths from me.”
I love it!! Music to my ears.

“I expect he will be many years ahead of his peers, who will spend the first term of school learning to add the numbers 1-5. I am determined that he will enjoy maths. I have been at a point were doing maths was painful.”
I don’t know how well I’ve come across before, but David absolutely hated doing maths. But the point is that it didn’t matter to me. Maths was simply too important. It’s not even close to being debatable – so as a parent you have to state to yourself (and it’s not easy): “I DON’T CARE IF YOU HATE MATHS, YOU ARE GOING TO DO IT, BECAUSE IT IS THAT IMPORTANT !!!” Once you have that mindset, which you seem to, then everything else will fall into place. And, by the way, one of his BS degrees is in Maths. He does love it now.

“I was told by my maths teachers that I was useless and a failure. Three years out of school, I took a psychological test that told me I was actually very mathematically-minded and I re-learned my past enjoyment of maths. I am now capable to pre-university level and actually find complex algebra problems fun (much the same way others enjoy a crossword). I never want my son to go through that.”
Join the club. I went through exactly the same. You should never permit your son’s success in life (which is more determined by reading and maths than everything else combined) to be in the hands of people that you barely know, who likely hated maths (at least in the States), and who could really care less where your kid is in 20 years. You are his parent, you are the only person that cares (along with some others, especially relatives – but you get my point).

95

To Mandabplus3,

“Will some clever person list the order to travel through the books in?”
I’ll only re-iterate what my knowledge base in Saxon is: The first hardcover is 54, then 65, then 76, then 87. From there it’s Algebra 1/2 (simply the greatest textbook ever written, by the way), then Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Advanced Mathematics, and finally Calculus. We never did Calculus, but by finishing the book before it (we did that cover to cover, every section, every problem, and it is a thick book), David was more than ready for Calculus at the college level.

“Next question. Robert why do you think they stuffed up the newer editions? What’s different? How different? At some point I am sure I won’t have a choice and will have to use one of the new ones, once the hens teeth fall out! Also if possible to know what edition did they change at?”
To answer this, you have to understand the history of Saxon. The company was started by a retired Air Force pilot, who wrote worksheets. He then upgraded them into books and then his series of books. He sold millions of them – but they were still very small in the word of text books. The results were absolutely remarkable – kids using Saxon (properly) were way, way, ahead of their peers. It wasn’t even close. So didn’t the education establishment embrace Saxon – not at all (no pictures of Nelson Mendela, for starters). They fought tooth and nail to keep them from taking hold. John Saxon, the founder, fought them right back, using test scores to make his points. Homeschoolers used Saxon in droves, they knew a good thing and had no political forces involved in their curriculum selection. But in the end, Mr. Saxon died. The company went to his kids. The kids sold it to a big textbook company, which then took it upon themselves to re-position the brand to “remedial” students. They did a few things that worry people, such as getting rid of hardcover books and going to “consumable” books – and, I think, significantly changing content, at least in some cases. They’ve been doing this for about a decade and they are still doing it. So are they worse now? I can’t say because I haven’t seen the new additions (and I have to be careful what I say). But I will say, for certain, that there was absolutely no room for improvement with the original version – they were perfect.
So my recommendation is to get what was called the “Home School Kit”, which consisted of the hardcover books, the solutions manual, and a test book with solutions (which we never used).

96

To Nee1,

“You are not the first person to tell me this. Dr Miles Jones of Jones Geniuses said the exact same thing during one of his early learning seminars. He strongly recommended that parents focus on the major, which are the 3R’s (that is Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic). According to him, every other thing is an add-on (or a hobby). I’d since made major modifications to my priorities as regards my kid’s education ever since he said this. And you’ve confirmed his words with your experience. Thank you.”

You’re welcome, and it’s sure nice to see someone other than a second-rate engineer (actually first-rate, but I don’t like to brag) saying the same thing.

“It’s interesting to know that David was able to get ahead because you focused on the major stuff, i.e., math and reading. And in an earlier post, you did mention Amy Chua (Tiger Mom)'s piano and violin priorities as been a bit out of place….I agree. I’ve gone for several interviews in my life and no one asked me if I could play the piano or not. Yes, those other things are important, but I treat them as add-ons, not the main stuff. Since Dr Jones shared those insights, I’d refocused my energies completely. Thank you for chiming in with your experience.”

Yep, I think I mentioned it before when I discussed the probability game. Yes, there’s Yo-Yo’s Mother, who can make a living playing the Cello, but there are, maybe, a few thousand orchestra musicians that can make a living at it (maybe less). But there are probably tens of millions of people that have sacrificed much of their education because of their love (or, in many cases, their parents’ love) of music. They have very little to show. My best friend growing up, the electrical contractor, played Cello (really) in junior high. He never did all that well in school…and spending time on that certainly didn’t help him one bit.
On the other hand, if your kid can have reading and math out of the way, then hobbies like violin can be done without the cost. Just something to think about.

“Could you elaborate more on this? You are always saying the most insightful things, giving me lots of food for thought. Thank you so, so much for joining us on this forum. You’ve impacted more minds than you think.”
Not sure what you’re referring to, unless what I’ve discussed above.
But thank you for the kind words – it still blows my mind to have actually found parents that want the same for their kids – rather than just thinking of David as some freak of nature.

97

Thanks again for your insight Robert.

I just want to clarify (as I didn’t explain very well) - when I said that I never want my son to think of maths as painful, I meant in the sense that he feels he is stupid and incapable. I fully expect there to be battles against ‘boring maths’ but I hope that will be because he has ‘more important’ (to him) things to do, or simply doesn’t want to revise topics he considers himself to have mastered.

“Painful” because he doesn’t want to take time away from play, I can handle. Painful because he thinks he is stupid and doesn’t believe himself capable, I refuse to accept. And if I am in control of his maths curriculum, I will have the knowledge to nip any self-pity sessions in the bud because I will know exactly what he can do and beat in to him (figuratively!) that he is not incapable, he just needs to work at that topic a bit more.

And on the topic of school busywork - my brother came over to borrow my computer for his homework last night. He spent 3 HOURS making a powerpoint presentation (for English class) as prompts for a speech about his holiday!!! Preparing prompts on paper would have taken 5-10 minutes and given the same result.

I never really thought about the content of school homework, but now that I have started noticing it there seems little of any benefit, and little that can’t be done without a computer! No wonder children no longer know how to spell (or even write!) - they rarely have the need to put pen to paper, and spelling mistakes are often auto-corrected so they don’t even know if they typed it right in the first place!

98

“I just want to clarify (as I didn’t explain very well) - when I said that I never want my son to think of maths as painful, I meant in the sense that he feels he is stupid and incapable. I fully expect there to be battles against ‘boring maths’ but I hope that will be because he has ‘more important’ (to him) things to do, or simply doesn’t want to revise topics he considers himself to have mastered.”

Ok, you pass (LOL). That makes perfect sense to me. But you do miss an important benefit when you actually control his curriculum and thus his learning. And that is he will never feel stupid or incapable, because he will have mastered all of the per-requisites…and the work he will be doing will just be a tiny notch above what he already knows down cold. That’s the idea of Saxon - things will be different - you’re still in the institutionalized mode of education, where knowing 75% of the prior material is good enough.

““Painful” because he doesn’t want to take time away from play, I can handle. Painful because he thinks he is stupid and doesn’t believe himself capable, I refuse to accept.”

Yes on the first, don’t worry about the second, based on my first comment.

“And if I am in control of his maths curriculum, I will have the knowledge to nip any self-pity sessions in the bud because I will know exactly what he can do and beat in to him (figuratively!) that he is not incapable, he just needs to work at that topic a bit more.”

Don’t worry, it won’t be nearly as bad as you fear. He’ll do just fine.

“And on the topic of school busywork - my brother came over to borrow my computer for his homework last night. He spent 3 HOURS making a powerpoint presentation (for English class) as prompts for a speech about his holiday!!! Preparing prompts on paper would have taken 5-10 minutes and given the same result.”

PLEASE!!! Do not get me started here!!! I saw the same thing and it was a pain in the neck. When I write a long report for work. I just start typing. Then, only after I have a boatload of words written down, I go back and clean it up and format it. Yes, you nailed it - the computer becomes a crutch, not a tool, not by a long-shot. I saw the same with David - he would have an assignment and spend 30 minutes trying to get the margins rights on his paper. That’s why I did all that I could to keep him off of that stuff (including calculators, since many of them are as bad as computers). There is absolutely no need for computers, and virtually no need for calculators. In fact, if our technology-driven kids were half as educated as American kids two generations ago, we would not be the laughing stock of the Western World when it comes to education. Computers have done absolutely nothing to help kids learn - about the only benefit they have is to act as a babysitter for teachers that don’t want to teach.

“I never really thought about the content of school homework, but now that I have started noticing it there seems little of any benefit, and little that can’t be done without a computer! No wonder children no longer know how to spell (or even write!) - they rarely have the need to put pen to paper, and spelling mistakes are often auto-corrected so they don’t even know if they typed it right in the first place!”"

Yep - one of the biggest deceptions in the educational world (and believe me, that world is loaded with deceptions) is that computers can teach kids better than pencil and paper. Well David learned math on pencil and paper, no computer, no calculator, at all. At one point he was 8 years ahead of his age (that was when I slowed him down, significantly). Exactly what more should I have expected from a computer? That’s my point - they’re useless, for teaching kids. They are good for analysis, once you understand the stuff. On Space Station we can predict temperatures of outdoor boxes very accurately using computer models - but someone wrote that software, someone that understood engineering, and without computers.

99

So I just marked the rest of her lessons, she has completed 13 lessons this week. :yes: :biggrin:
She made a couple of mistakes. Three stupid ones so I made her redo them. She was skipping the date questions because we don’t write dates the American way. So I made her do those questions writing them the Aussie way ( day month year). She very cleverly changed all the American currency to the Australian equivalent and completed all the currency questions. :smiley: ( including nickels!)
I have told her I want every question right. Oh she even explained why one that I had circled as wrong was actually right. Turns out mummy didn’t read the question properly! :ohmy:
To my surprise she learnt negative numbers this week. I didn’t know she didn’t know them until she told me she learnt all about those in the “number line thing” I made her read :rolleyes: it was in the book so she had to read it!
So she has independently learnt a new math skill and got all the associated questions about it right. I am very happy about this! Also annoyed she hasn’t already learnt this stuff at school but hey we arnt relying on them to teach her for a reason!
One thing I noticed is that it takes me a good chunck of time to mark all her work if she continues at this pace, I reckon i will be working the old grey matter to get my calculation speeds up so I can keep up with her! I don’t want her to get too far ahead of my marking.
Finally her self confidence is improving. I suggested that perhaps she needed some harder work at school. ( her national testing scores came back suggesting just this :biggrin: ) and she said " yeah especially in math" music to my ears!
Thanks for the list in order Robert, now I know what to shop for. This is going to be quite a challenge for me being in Australia! :confused:

100

Thank you, thank you, and thank you to everyone for their insights on this thread.

Thank you MummyRoo for sharing that story about that little boy you tutor, and thank you to Robert for the very insightful response. A friend shared the story once, that he tried to teach his daughter maths the traditional way, and she whined: ‘Daddy, that is not how we are taught in school’. So he gave up trying to teach her with the fear that he might mess her by teaching her the traditional way.

Based on MummyRoo’s story and Robert’s response to that story, I realised my friend should not have given up. He should have known that the 'new way’ would be the thing that would rather mess her up in future. If a child spends so much time learning 20 different ways of doing addition, when will he/she then learn how to do advanced math, and then go to developing math theorems? You can’t develop solid and publishable math theorems without a solid knowledge of math facts (most of it memorised); you just can’t.

The very inefficient methods of these ‘new math’ curricula bother me greatly, take for instance this video of ‘Everyday Math’ book which I posted earlier on this thread. (Huge thanks to Robert for originally posting this video alongside his Amazon.com review of the book).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Tr1qee-bTZI#t=0s

I have decided, based on the insights I’ve read on this thread, to keep my child a minimum of 2 years ahead in the core subjects (math and reading) with very strong emphasis on math, just like Robert did. And that is not to brag or score points, but to ensure no one messes him up in these core subjects should he go to school. Thanks a lot, Robert. I’ve learnt A LOT from you. Thank you, thank you, and thank you.