We Can Do by Moshe Kai with guest Robert Levy discussing Saxon Math.

Early Learning Early Learning General Discussions
61

Sonya,

Regarding Hamlet and reading, I did similar to what I mentioned earlier with basic math, where I gave up on David understanding concepts (i.e., I didn’t care if he knew what 2 plus 3 meant in the real world, I just wanted him to say “5”), figuring, correctly, that he would backfill as he got older.

In the case of reading, I only cared, initially, that he could read words. I didn’t care if he had any clue what they meant, or if he stopped at punctuation breaks. So he, initially, ran right through the end of sentences into the next one. I figured if he could read easily, then I’d worry about punctuation, rather than hitting him all at once with everything. But when Hamlet came around, I saw a chance to put an end to that, and used it to have him learn punctuation and role-playing. By role-playing, all I mean was that he would try to speak with the same voices that the characters have…if female, he would speak with a high voice, if the ghost, he’d speak with a “scary” voice, etc.

By the time he finished the book, I was done teaching him reading. Also, over the next few years, he back-filled any gaps, so that worked just as good for reading as math…and would probably get me expelled as a teacher anywhere in the country.

62

Robert,

I’ve been meaning to ask a few questions on implementation. Did you use student edition, teacher edition, or both? Did David just write in the book as you went or did you have him use paper (such as in school when they want to re-use the book) or did you photocopy? I know these are somewhat insignificant questions, but I’m still curious all the same.

I’m about ten pages into Inside American Education and am loving it already. Will post more questions down the road as I think of them.

63

Hi Poker Dad,

Sorry for not replying sooner. I stopped getting comments over Labor Day, and didn’t check back after that.

As to your questions: I was able to get through Math 54 and Math 65 without an solution manual, but after that it was very nice to have. As to an instructor manual, I never had one, and don’t even know if they exist. The solution manuals worked well enough for me.

We only used the old hardcover books (rather than the newer ones, which are consumable), and no, he never wrote in them. He just did his work on notebook paper.

Glad you’re reading Dr. Sowell. Two things to note: (1) The first is how thoroughly sourced his books are. He doesn’t make up stuff, like The Establishment does, and (2) you’ll see Columbine High School mentioned as a place where brainwashing takes place (Death Education, if you can believe it) - that was about 6 years before the shooting (when the book was first published)…were they messing with the kids’ minds - who knows?

(p.s., my kid thinks that I turned people off here by coming out against Sight Words - if so, so be it - I’m not in this to make money or help others make money, I just state my observations, my methods, and my results)

64

Lol about your son.
I for one am not turned off by others opinions and experiences. :slight_smile:

And even though my kid is only 2 we are very seriously looking into Saxon one year.

65

I certainly wasn’t put off. I only shared my story to add a different perspective. I’m very grateful for everything that you’ve given us to think about.

66

[warning: rant]

What a great post :slight_smile: I’ve really enjoyed it, especially since I was one of those who couldn’t find meaning in a degree (i was already running a business) despite attending a top uni, enrolled in advanced courses, pre-law, pre-med, class president, blah, blah, blah. result: i never got my degree … but am now (thanks to EL) heading back to get my phd in drum roll education! LOL

why? well, the system needs to be reformed, clearly. and i figure it’s easier to do once you’re ‘in’ the system, especially since realizing that the masses really equate letters behind one’s name to credibility! granted, i can get my kids to bypass our wonderful educational system by having them go the early-admission-cc-to-4-yr-uni route with a masters by the time their peers are finishing up high school (yes, i had this plan/goal set since last spring, including considering online classes at the cc in case i feel that they’re ‘too young’ to be left on the campus alone 8) btw: colleges are starting to put minimum age limits here!), but that still leaves my kids living in a country with peers who were severely failed. and somehow, to me, not doing something about it means that i’m failing my kids, too.

as adults, my children shouldn’t be content throttling in their communities or have to join up with ‘strangers’ across the globe (as we do on this forum) to find stimulating conversation. i feel that i should be able to engage in thought-provoking dialogue with anyone in my community (at the grocery store, at the mall, in an elevator), yet society has trained me to steer away from such until i’m certain that 1) said person is capable of thought beyond the basics, and 2) offenses won’t be taken, as may be the case for someone not taught to develop a position, defend the position, and openly reflect on changing one’s position if presented with new information. although i think my kids should be capable of discussing common topics, peer dialogue should not be limited to fashion, tv, sports, and work. nor should the bar of their passions (determined by education/experiences) be set so low that they find little significance in their existence (or worse yet, that they don’t even reflect on it!).

not only that, i am one of those ‘one person can change the world’ sort of people. where would humanity be without people straying from the social herd and thinking they could make a positive difference? and while i can garner merit from you bringing your kid to reality, possibly to keep him grounded in the worth of everyone and engaged within his surrounding social structure; i respectfully cringe at my interpretation of you drilling into your child that he isn’t brilliant. i do believe that relating to our peers is crucial. after all, what’s the point of having something to say/contribute, if no one is willing to listen/accept what you have to offer? interestingly, your proof is in the pudding. and the pudding gave you an 11! i don’t think it gets much better than that :biggrin: and at the risk of embarrassing him, i find it adorable that he came on here to check in and offer you his opinion. (by the way - i doubt i’m the only one who would LOVE to get his take on some el questions too!).

rant aside (no offense intended!), i would love to see more kids exposed to accelerated learning. so many, in fact, that it is no longer considered accelerated and just becomes the norm. why? because we’re all capable of it! in earlier posts, children with learning challenges were mentioned, but there are people who have successfully taught down syndrome, autistic, and other ‘challenged’ children to do more than the ‘average’ us student is doing in public schools right now.

i think about a problem arising that could negatively impact my ability to enjoy life with my kids - worst cases: illness, war, natural (more than likely human-inflicted and preventable) disaster. and then i think about how many people exist who can help prevent it. my sad reality is that our current system is failing all of us by not producing better thinkers, problem solvers, and people willing to contribute their findings. even worse, our nation, so far as i see it, is becoming more naive/ignorant with time, more apathetic to the problems that are being seen, and more incapable of correcting such grave errors, probably due to producing generations who are blind to critical thinking/problem solving. i see reading and math literacy as cures to this ailment, but without creating a system that supports early education, or at least the children that are a product of it, i feel that we have little hope of correcting this course to chaos. really, i can only speak on my experience here in va. this forum is international, but even within the us, each state has their own way of handling education. truthfully, even within the same school, each teacher has their own methods, which i have personally seen result in vast differences from classroom to classroom. so yeah, my two cents.

and as for whether i was offended by your comments: initially, yes, i was put off. but i kept reading and could clearly understand how your passion was fueled. i wholeheartedly agree that sight reading should not be practiced in elementary school, that phonics is key at that age. and i appreciated your acknowledging your lack of information on its application under age 4, as well as your ability to reason that it may work for that age group (it did for my kids :happy: ). anyway, thanks so much for sharing your points, and thank you so much for conscientiously raising a capable, confident, young man despite the social obstacles that you faced - the world definitely needs more of them!

i feel blessed each day for coming across this forum and its participants. i know that without them, my kids would be that much farther from reaching their natural potential. welcome, and feel free to share your opinions as they come. i might add that another failing of our current system seems to be in producing people who no longer know how to respectfully engage in friendly dialogue/debate. it seems that either people’s feelings get too hurt and they quit, or their feelings get too hurt and they start insulting or reacting violently. shame. the way i see it, conversation is meant to be engaging, stimulating, and with disagreement at times or else we’d be a nation of non-thinkers (oh wait, are we not there, yet?). we should get back to teaching actual rhetoric/philosophy in schools. where i live, i wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of the public school kids weren’t even familiar with the word. :-/ regardless, i very much appreciated your comments with all of their flavor, and do hope to read more from you thanks, again :slight_smile:

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Robert, you’re not turning anyone off. We are a very open-minded group here. After that is the best way to learn - being open-minded.

As PokerDad mentioned before, you are a legend on this forum. I personally did stalk your amazon.com posts and reviews, in the hopes of learning what you did to produce a high-achieving child. I learnt a lot from those reviews, and I’m learning even more from your posts on this forum. Thank you so much for coming around to share your strategies and insights with us. Very much appreciated.

After all, according to Anders Ericsson’s research on expertise and high-performance, one of the best ways to become very good at anything is to find someone who’s already achieved what you’re trying to achieve, model your steps after that person, modify where necessary, and very soon you’ll pretty much have his same kind of results. In other words, find coaches and mentors (in this case, parents that have raised academically successful children). See ‘The making of an expert’ by Ericsson et al published in Harvard Business Review: http://www.uvm.edu/~pdodds/files/papers/others/2007/ericsson2007a.pdf.

So, please keep posting, I enjoy your insights a lot, and I’ve made modifications to my early learning strategies based on what I’ve learnt on this thread. And very importantly, you’ve given me a lot to think about.

Thank you once again.

68

I live in the UK, so can’t say much about the US education system. I went to a grammar school (elite state school) where we were told often that we were “amongst the top 5% of students in the country” and were left with the distinct impression that anything less than an A was a failure… (minor rant alert :wub: )

YET I distinctly remember sitting through two years of maths and science where I completed the class work and homework in around 10 minutes and spent the next 45 minutes chatting with my equally capable friend. We begged our teachers for more work and were refused! We actually got told off for doing our homework because the teacher told the class “to continue from where we were in the textbook for 1/2 hour at home” and didn’t tell us not to. She was fuming the next lesson when we were massively ahead of the rest of the class…

It was only at A level (I’d guess college level in the US - age 17/18 pre-university specialist courses) that maths became a challenge for me. I didn’t follow the teacher’s explanations well and was constantly reprimanded for working together with a friend who similarly struggled to figure out the concept. She told us that we couldn’t help each other in the exams, conveniently ignoring the fact that we couldn’t DO the exam if we didn’t understand the concept… Needless to say, pre-A level I breezed through maths with no effort, in two years I was deemed a failure and incapable of doing higher-level maths. I consider this to be down to three things: bad teaching, being given a calculator (I still have to skip-count through some of my times tables :ohmy: ) and wasting two years before being streamed into a group where we worked the full lesson, but still with no real effort and using a calculator for the next two years.

In short, I went to one of the top 20 schools in the country and my high school maths (science, foreign language, literature, English language…) education was a waste of time. I wasn’t pushed at all for four years, by which point I was hopelessly lazy and absolutely dependent on a calculator for all but the most basic of sums. It wasn’t until years later that I started doing complex arithmetic and algebra for FUN that I realised that I wasn’t stupid. I never want my son to feel that way about any aspect of his education!

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Robert,

Your opinion and words are highly respected here on this forum by everyone and if anything I feel that you are just being passionate about something that needs to be understood. I agree with you about the sight words. I feel that it is sooooooooo much more beneficial to teach phonics first. If I knew what I know now I would have made phonic flashcards of the blends, digraphs and letters to teach my son their sounds to fit the style of the BrillKids program. I just taught him with magnets etc. it did not matter becuse he learned phonics before he could speak and from his first word (apple) to now his pronunciation is very good. Here is a video of Cayden reading a book he has seen probably once or twice last Christmas and has since been collecting dust on the bookshelf.

Please continue to give us your input here and if you ever have a couple extra minutes and can lend us some helpful information, experiences, tips, etc. on some of the other topics being discussed here on the forum we would be forever grateful. I was also wondering if you could tell us your top books that you would recommend to help give us more insight.

Thanks
Melanie

Edit * Video was not posting from ipad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPJ_93ednh4&feature=plcp

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Thanks to you all I have learnt MUCH reading this thread.
Robert THANKYOU so very much for jumping on here with us. I in particular have really enjoyed your contribution.
So although you have answered almost all of my questions, I have one more :slight_smile:
Did your son find Saxon 5/4 ridiculously easy when you first started? Based on your comments I can assume he had a really good basis in math and was probably pretty quick at basic calculations mentally. I am using 5/4 with my 3rd grade child and she is finding it easy. I skipped ahead to see if it gets harder and really it won’t be much of a stretch for her a all. I am considering starting my grade 1 child on saxon 5/4 at a slower pace. Its pretty much at her level now. I am reluctant to skip to the next book as I believe in a solid foundation and she doesn’t have any math facts memorized, she is just pretty good at math overall.
Based on your experience I have decided that she can do 2 lessons on most days ( probably one on her gymnastics days) and 6 over the weekend. The book will be finished in under 2 months at that rate so I am thinking we will stick with it. I was only asking her for one lesson ,most days but decided to up the expectations after reading this thread.
I also offered her a reward for the completion of the book. ( don’t know why I didn’t think of that before!)
in addition to all this I have decided that every time my kids argue or get sent to their rooms they have to complete a lesson in Saxon ( or a page of sums depending othe kid) I will have to carefully balance the rewards and punishments to keep a positive disposition towards math work. I figure doing it this way they will either grow up to be nice people or smart enough that it won’t matter! lol
Robert any indication of the difficulty level your son experienced at the start would be great.
Oh and it’s so refreshing to “chat” with a parent who raised a advanced student with his feet obviously still firmly osolid grouding. Well done!

71

not to highjack the thread, but …
@mela - i love the book!! did you create it from scratch or were the pages done and you just had to insert his name and picture before printing? I would so love to make one for the kids (mostly for kaelie’s benefit, but you can imagine what it’s like with two close in age).
@mandabplus3 - i’m relieved that i’m not the only one who uses math & timeout together. it’s new for us, so we’re playing it by ear, but lately, j’s been able to get out of time out earlier by ‘mathing’ his way out. for now, it’s pretty much counting backwards from 50 (we started at 20, but are up now). depending on what he does, sometimes he can’t just ‘math’ his way out of timeout, although i don’t stop him from trying lol. at first, i was concerned about it creating a negative relationship for him with math, but fortunately, since he’s using math to get out of a problem (timeout), it seems to be a friend, rather than foe. as he gets better, i’m thinking about adding math worksheets and such to make time out more productive; and i wouldn’t be surprised if it just became ‘critical thinking time’ where he would eventually have to figure out other issues that may require math, science, etc. as we progress, i’m sure there will be times where he will be required to reflect on what he’s done and maybe even write about it while in time out, but for now, this seems to be working for us. fyi: for those interested - each timeout session, which doesn’t last but a few minutes, if that, is followed by a chat about why he was put in timeout, what’s expected to prevent him from going back for that same reason, and confirmation of our love and commitment to him becoming the best version of himself.

back to the thread & robert - in case it wasn’t so obvious in my past thread: i’m also so very grateful to have light shed by a ‘been there, done that’ parent! thanks for sharing and i hope that you (and eventually your ‘little one’) keep contributing to the forum!!

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Scratch!! I wish I had that kind of time… :slight_smile: I might use it to sleep though.
I got the books made from shutterfly http://www.shutterfly.com/custom-photo-products/centerstage-products/centerstage-books?c=50502
It is so simple all you do is upload a picture per their instructions, enter a few details about your child so they can incorporate it into the story and about 3 weeks later you have the book. The site usually has really good sales but these books never go on sale. The best I have done is to wait for free shipping.

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Thank you guys, all is well – appreciate the words. I’ll reply to some specific comments, below, from the first of the true “rants” (LOL), above.

To Queriquita,
“…especially since realizing that the masses really equate letters behind one’s name to credibility!”
Unfortunately, that is the case in this country. Yes, there are plenty of ways to be successful without college, but life comes down to a probability game, in the end, and college drastically raises the probability of a comfortable life. For example, a kid who is good in football in junior high might make to the NFL, and thus make huge bucks, but what are really his odds – maybe 1000 to 1. Likewise, a kid who is an auto mechanic or plumber may make it big in the business, own a large firm, and be all set, but the odds there are still very stacked – maybe 100 to 1 (or 20 to 1, at best). My best friend in high school became an electrician, then a contractor, then had his own business. He was busy as heck, so I told him to hire some high school kids. He tried, offered twice minimum wage, no one wanted it (heck, I would have paid that, to learn those skills). He ended up hiring a couple of other people (at different times). One stole jewelry from a customer, and the other also didn’t work out. He did that for 30 years, and was as good as they come – at one point he was charging over $100 per hour. But the money was in fits and starts, and then the jobs pretty much dried up completely and he, luckily, got himself a job for a big hospital group as their chief electrician. He does great, loves it, but still only earns half as much as my kid will start out at (assuming he gets a job at market salary).
But a kid who gets an MD is basically 100% set; engineering, maybe 90% to 95%, and then it starts to drop for other majors, but their probability of having a comfortable life is still much, much, higher than non-college. Is that fair, or just? It depends whose side you’re on. If I’m an employer and I have a job that requires reading, I’m going to want someone with a 2-year community college degree (minimum), simply because I wouldn’t trust high school graduates to have that skill (at least in a lot of cases). If they’re expected to do some math, then I’d want to see college-level math completed. Our schools have created this mess, not the people trying to stay in business, and not society as a whole.

“granted, i can get my kids to bypass our wonderful educational system by having them go the early-admission-cc-to-4-yr-uni route with a masters by the time their peers are finishing up high schoo…but that still leaves my kids living in a country with peers who were severely failed.”
Yes and no. You have to define peers. People say that public schools are good, even for people that are on a high-achieving college track, since you get to understand all types of people, and that’s what’s out there in the real world. I don’t buy that. Yes, there are all types out there in the world, but unless I’m at Walmart or at the other end of a gun (or DMV), I don’t have to interact with them. I don’t have to live in their neighborhoods, and I don’t have to invite them over to my house. I can if I want, but I don’t have to. Likewise, beating (figuratively, of course) into my kid that he’s nothing special allows him to not look down at those Walmart workers, but to respect them for who they are. At to the country as whole, yes, it’s depressing to consider all of the young adults aimlessly trying to figure out what to do with their lives, when they spent their entire childhood dreaming of being a video game designer (and therefore trying to master every video game) just to find out that designing video games takes hard work for very few high-paying jobs, and they’re more likely to be a starter in the NFL then to get one of those jobs – but you cannot carry the country’s stupidity on your shoulders and you just have to live with it. I take a lot of solace because I work with many well-educated, foreign-born people who do well, and keep coming in here and snapping up the good jobs, and really helping out the country. Without them, we’d be doomed.

“ and somehow, to me, not doing something about it means that i’m failing my kids, too. “
Other than running for office and then finding out just how well organized and nasty the people are that have given us (and maintain) this system, you can’t do much. The best you can do is give your kids the tools they need to be successful, regardless of where this country goes.

“i feel that i should be able to engage in thought-provoking dialogue with anyone in my community…until i’m certain that…offenses won’t be taken”
Yep, and sorry. My kid has some friends from the Middle East. I warned him to never, ever, talk politics with them, no matter how nice they seem, because you don’t know what will set them off, and what will be the consequences of it (and yes, we found out later, sure enough, some things set them off). I work with some really great Indians. They always talk about being Indian, so I made the stupid mistake of also noticing they were Indians and talking. My boss started investigating to see if I was racist. Thankfully one of the Indians told me that he defended me when questioned – and to this day I have absolutely no clue what I said or did. That is our country – the only way that changes is to clean the people out of office who gave us it, and the ones who support it. Needless to say, a huge task, so don’t even bother thinking you can help there. What you can do is make darn sure your kids understand the traps out there, particularly if they’re not a protected minority.

“not only that, i am one of those ‘one person can change the world’ sort of people. where would humanity be without people straying from the social herd and thinking they could make a positive difference?”
Yes, definitely, one person can change things. But no, one little sqirt cannot. Sorry. That’s my point about telling my kid he’s nothing, until he earns his way to the level where he can make a difference. Right now, he’s a kid finishing up college with an oversized head on his shoulders (hopefully not, though). That’s it. Maybe 20 years from now he’ll be somebody, or, in very, very rare cases, 10 years (Gates, Zuckerberg, etc.), but not now – he’s just another entry-level worker (hopefully soon) getting his footing.

“and while i can garner merit from you bringing your kid to reality, possibly to keep him grounded in the worth of everyone and engaged within his surrounding social structure; i respectfully cringe at my interpretation of you drilling into your child that he isn’t brilliant.”
Actually, you provided your own reply to the above later on, where you said that most (actually, nearly all) kids can be accelerated. If that is the case, then there’s really nothing all that different about my kid. He’s accelerated, not brilliant. He becomes brilliant when he starts opening up new areas in science and engineering. My mom knew a lady that won the Nobel Prize, for work she did in medicine at the sub-microscopic level. She told me that they had to come up with new units of measurements because of her work. That is groundbreaking and brilliant. Getting through college 5 or 6 years ahead of others is not. When I conclude my kid is actually brilliant, he’ll be the first to I know – you have my word.

“ i do believe that relating to our peers is crucial. after all, what’s the point of having something to say/contribute, if no one is willing to listen/accept what you have to offer?”
Agree. That’s the whole point of making sure his achievements don’t get to his head. As long as he understands that there is nothing special about him making him superior to others, he will do fine with others. I cringe at parents (my turn, but not at you) that think their kids will be scarred for life if they’re not told every day that the world revolves around them. It doesn’t and it’s better for the kid to enter the world understanding that, then to have later shoved in his face when he’s not ready for it.

“rant aside (no offense intended!), i would love to see more kids exposed to accelerated learning. so many, in fact, that it is no longer considered accelerated and just becomes the norm. why? because we’re all capable of it!”
This is where you answered your (above) question – you’re basically saying that accelerated learning can be the norm. I too would love to see it – just so there wouldn’t be so many empty lives in this country.

“and as for whether i was offended by your comments: initially, yes, i was put off. but i kept reading and could clearly understand how your passion was fueled.”
Thanks, appreciate the feedback, and appreciate that you see where I’m coming from.

“i feel blessed each day for coming across this forum and its participants. i know that without them, my kids would be that much farther from reaching their natural potential.”
Like I’ve said earlier, I too am happy to see a forum which respects accelerated learning, rather than thinking it’s just a poor kid who got stuck with a drill-sergeant for a dad.

“ welcome, and feel free to share your opinions as they come.”
Thanks again, with your kind comments, and the others, I’ll keep replying when it makes sense to.

To MummyRoo,
“YET I distinctly remember sitting through two years of maths and science where I completed the class work and homework in around 10 minutes and spent the next 45 minutes chatting with my equally capable friend. We begged our teachers for more work and were refused! We actually got told off for doing our homework because the teacher told the class “to continue from where we were in the textbook for 1/2 hour at home” and didn’t tell us not to. She was fuming the next lesson when we were massively ahead of the rest of the class…”
Sorry to hear that. It looks like you guys (i.e., Brits) are taking marching orders from the States. Sorry to hear that. From your description, it seems that the entire purpose of those schools, now, is to take out the high achievers, group them together, and bring them back in line with the ‘average’ students. In the US, other than in a few cases, we don’t have those kinds of schools. Instead we bring down the high-achievers in different ways (like not teaching phonics until 4th grade, or teaching maths in ways that don’t make any sense). I think in your case, they didn’t want to take the political heat of having to explain that success was no longer desired, so they kept the schools open, but simply dumbed them way down.

“Needless to say, pre-A level I breezed through maths with no effort, in two years I was deemed a failure and incapable of doing higher-level maths. I consider this to be down to three things: bad teaching, being given a calculator (I still have to skip-count through some of my times tables ) and wasting two years before being streamed into a group where we worked the full lesson, but still with no real effort and using a calculator for the next two years.”
That sounds an awful lot like my childhood – which is what drove me to make damn sure that my kid(s) did not have to go through the same. Not my kids, not in my house. We’re all a product of our past. I suspect that when your parents grew up, you had a well-functioning educational system that honored achievement. I know that was the case for my parents. So what did our parents do? They figured that things were essentially unchanged when it was time to send their kids (you and I) to school. How wrong they were. It’s difficult for many, if not most, people to accept, but the people who run today’s schools have absolutely nothing in common with the achievement-minded people that ran our parents schools. It is this fundamental understanding that parents must accept, in order for their kids to have a chance to do well in this country. Otherwise they’re just rolling the dice, in a probability game with very, very, long odds (as I’ve seen with the kids of my co-workers, other than the immigrants).

“I wasn’t pushed at all for four years, by which point I was hopelessly lazy and absolutely dependent on a calculator for all but the most basic of sums.”
I showed this line to my kid…it is profound. Once the pressure is taken off, then people have trouble (and often cannot) respond quickly once the pressure is again applied. Teaching my kid through Saxon kept a constant level of pressure on him. No ups and down, just a steady progression through pre-Calc.

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Thanks Melanie,

Cayden looks great.

“I was also wondering if you could tell us your top books that you would recommend to help give us more insight.”

Not much that I haven’t mentioned. I just figured out the phonics myself and used Saxon starting at their 54 book. The hardest part, by far, was dealing with others, including the kid and wife, and I’ll explain.

For the kid and wife: No one wants a kid that’s screaming and complaining, they want a happy kid - and one glued to video games and/or playing with toys fits that bill. So my wife wasn’t bad, but she’s a mom, and when her kid is upset, it bothered her. But we worked through it and she started seeing results.

For dealing with others: This was the tough part for me. I had no template. I had to figure out whether I was pushing too hard, or in the wrong direction, or whether everything would backfire and maybe screw up his ability to learn later in life. As I’ve said, the people that talked to, including my parents, at best thought it was odd, and many said it was simply too fast. So being confident that it would work was very tough, and, at the beginning, progress is slow, and results are far between, so second thoughts are all over the place.

The reason that I bring that up is because it was books like “Inside American Education” by Thomas Sowell that kept me going - along with other books critiquing today’s educational system (there are plenty out there, and I read maybe another 5 or 6). And it was my political instincts - I simply was not going to let the same people that I didn’t trust to run this country - educate my kids. I just couldn’t see how they would do that right, when they couldn’t even figure out who the bad guys were during the Cold War (sorry for the politics, but it is part of what drove me). All of that kept me going…and then things started dropping into place as he read quicker and started breezing through math.

But as far as curriculum was concerned. It consisted of the following, and nothing else except:

  1. Flash Cards - for addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division - although you might need to buy them used. I suspect if you buy them new and open the box, all you’ll find is a cheap calculator.
  2. Marker Board - for teaching phonics, starting with the word “cat”; I would just write letters and words, obviously starting with the easiest first. Then I used it for a number line, while doing plus and minus flash cards.
  3. Books to Read - Some easy, some tough. “The Lion King” was a very tough one, but he wanted to read it. We were lucky to get through one page a day, at times.
  4. Math number sheets - Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, decimals. Just made those up out of thin air and printed them out (he hated them…and so did I, thank God for Saxon).
  5. Saxon Math - Math 54 through Advanced Math (pre-calc), only use hardcover editions. No calculators until near the very end. I even printed up log and trig tables.

That was it. I looked at computer applications to teach kids phonics and math, and they simply didn’t seem to be doing it - they seemed more concerned with keeping the kids entertained then having them learn (my opinion, of course), but that was how I saw it.

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Mandabplus3
“Thanks to you all I have learnt MUCH reading this thread. Robert THANKYOU so very much for jumping on here with us. I in particular have really enjoyed your contribution.”
You’re certainly welcome, and given all the kind responses, I won’t doubt you guys again.

“Did your son find Saxon 5/4 ridiculously easy when you first started?”
Yes and no. Thanks to the number sheets he had no problems at all on the arithmetic end of it. But much of the other stuff was very challenging, and forced him to think hard (he was 6 when he started on it). The ones that I remember as really challenging were problems such as having a block of cubes 3 x 4 x 5, and painting the outside of the block black. What you had to do was figure out how many cubes had no paint on them, how many had one surface painted, two surfaces, and three surfaces. It was a tough problem for a little guy. So were time (i.e., clock) problems, where it’s 2 hrs. 40 minutes earlier… I even struggled with some of them.

“ Based on your comments I can assume he had a really good basis in math and was probably pretty quick at basic calculations mentally.”
Yes and no mentally – he never really got the “feel of the numbers” as I call it until much later, but could always do the work on paper, and quickly.

“ I am using 5/4 with my 3rd grade child and she is finding it easy. I skipped ahead to see if it gets harder and really it won’t be much of a stretch for her at all. I am considering starting my grade 1 child on saxon 5/4 at a slower pace. It’s pretty much at her level now. I am reluctant to skip to the next book as I believe in a solid foundation and she doesn’t have any math facts memorized, she is just pretty good at math overall.”
My first thought was “you’ll have to make that call, as I’m just not privy enough to even know what’s being taught” – but now I’m thinking something else. If she’s good at 54, then just have her breeze through the book nice and quick. At worst she brushes up on her skills, but more likely she’ll plug some gaps. With Saxon, if you do it all, you will have no gaps – none – that’s why I admire them so much. For the younger one, I think she definitely needs her addition and multiplication facts memorized, as well as being able to do 2-digit addition and subtraction (division is dealt with in the 54 book). I wouldn’t recommend starting on 54 until she’s at least there. In other words, if she struggles with the basics, she really won’t be learning what they’re trying to teach in that book. So sit her down with number sheets, until she’s at the level I suggested, and then go to 54.

“Based on your experience I have decided that she can do 2 lessons on most days ( probably one on her gymnastics days) and 6 over the weekend. The book will be finished in under 2 months at that rate so I am thinking we will stick with it.”
Exactly. Perfect pace for the early books, just as we did. She will be sharp as a nail finishing the book that quick. Make sure you buy her a gift for finishing it. And then right on to 65, maybe skipping the first 40 sections, as they’re basically catch-up for the summer break. If you work that clip, or close to it, you can skip the exams they have, just do the problems. Never skip a problem and never accept a mistake. If she gets a problem wrong – tell her it’s wrong and to try again, then slowly give hints if she’s still struggling. But 95% is not acceptable – she needs to be able to, eventually, answer each one.

“ I was only asking her for one lesson ,most days but decided to up the expectations after reading this thread.”
Concur – if she’s breezing through, then keep it going. I’m convinced that the faster you’re able to go, the less time (in hours) will be spent on each book.

“I also offered her a reward for the completion of the book. ( don’t know why I didn’t think of that before!)”
(caution, political rant, LOL) That’s because rewards don’t mean anything these days, since everyone gets one, for about anything. Have her really feel she earned it, and it will mean a lot to her.

“In addition to all this I have decided that every time my kids argue or get sent to their rooms they have to complete a lesson in Saxon ( or a page of sums depending othe kid) I will have to carefully balance the rewards and punishments to keep a positive disposition towards math work.”
My answer: “I won’t go there, other than to say you’re on track – you simply cannot let them run the show. That’s the number one parenting problem today.”
David’s answer: “Risky, you don’t want to associate Saxon with punishment, and gives somewhat conflicting messages if there is a reward for completing the book. I (David) recommend a swat instead. But it is a delicate balance.”
[[ so, tough one…you’ll have to pick the approach you’re comfortable with ]]

“I figure doing it this way they will either grow up to be nice people or smart enough that it won’t matter!”
It always matters (and I know you know that). The thing is, they will adore you for what you’re doing. Not now…you’ll be the meanest mom in their video game group, but they’ll see other kids struggling with basic math concepts that they mastered years earlier, and they will know who to thank.

“Oh and it’s so refreshing to “chat” with a parent who raised a advanced student with his feet obviously still firmly on solid grounding. Well done!”
Many thanks

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Thanks so much.
Yes the punishment of math is something iwill keep an eye on. Oh and David, yes thats my backup plan for repeated bad behaviour. :smiley:
I definately run the show in this house my kids are not spoilt video game kids who don’t know what a reward means. They might have trouble explaining what a video game is actually… Nope her reward is exactly what she REALLY wants and it’s something she knows I wouldn’t normally buy any of my kids. She desperately wants an iPod. She has been asking for one for about 18 months. I have said no because I am sure it will lead to other behaviour I don’t like. ( room isolation, ignoring her siblings and head phones) Since I gave her the reward motivation she is zipping through the lessons very quickly. Tonight she asked if she could read in the car on the way to and from school and do math lessons in her bedtime reading time! She knows she is time poor so she is looking for ways to fit it in faster. We don’t have time for TV and videos in this house. I schedule in free play time we are that busy!
So your reply confirmed my plan. Whizz through this one 5/4 and get started on 6/5 ASAP which should provide some challenge. Thanks for mentioning to skip the first 40 lessons ( although I may skip a few less than that) I wasn’t sure on that idea for the next book, but i could clearly see the revision in this one. I made her do it anyway this time around.
My second daughter ( she is 6 also) is very nearly ready to start it then. She can do double digit addition and subtraction now. We shall do more practice all the same. I want the Saxon to count and I only want to do it once with her! She will be hard work. I can’t see her doing division but that’s obviously my issue not hers as she can do multiplication. :blush: I guess it’s time to go make some flash cards! ( oh boy I laughed so hard reading that one, my hubby was thinking I was a little deranged! lol )
Thanks again!

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That sounds fine, you seem to have a good plan. I showed that line on the flash cards to my kid too. As cynical as I was towards public education at the start with David, I only got worse as the years went by. After all, like I say, I’m a second-rate engineer with zero training on how kids learn, how to motivate them, and even what curriculum works. But I followed my instincts based on my experiences and what I was hearing in the political world - which was completely different than what the experts insist on, and David (obviously) blew past their template. It’s hard to think of an analogy, but the one that comes to mind (to me) would be if my wife has surgery for something, and she improves, but not all that much - but the doctor says that the best that medicine can do. So I (as a non-doctor) say, “I can do better”, so I cut her open, do a few things, and she winds up much, much, better off. If that happened, one could, I’m sure, then understand my cynicism towards the medical community. But that would never happen (of course), I would never consider trying, and if I did, I’d be looking at decades in jail. But that’s my point - I shouldn’t be able to do something better than a field that has millions and millions of workers and trillions of dollars of money to work with - but I did in education, and much, much, better. So when I make my snide remark about flash cards, you know where I’m coming from - and what is true now, is that the flash cards actually have the answer (along with the problem) in small print on the back. I suspect too many parents complained when they needed to have a calculator with them as they worked the problems (LOL). Anyway, I bring this up to warn you (and others) that if you pull this off, you may wind up as a different person, even more polarized than you may have been when you started.

Just a bit of caution on the IPOD - they do have internet capability if you have a wireless system in your place (or a neighbor has an unlocked system). I would strongly advise to keep that locked out as long as possible. Listen to music - fine, surf the web, not so fine. And be sure you understand it - I don’t, I only know what David tells me, and he didn’t get his until only a year ago (I got him MP3 players prior, but not an IPOD).

Anyway, your plan sounds great and please keep us all informed.

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I am joining this interesting conversation a bit late although I’ve been following it from the start. Needless to say that I am so thankful to Mr. Levy for sharing his valuable experience with us. Now my question is about David’s leisure time. Does he have any hobbies he’s doing “just for fun”? How much time does he spend on them and how do you let him know that “there is a time for playing and there is time for working” (a quote from a Brillkids book :smiley: )

Thanks for sharing

P.S: BTW, I am a neighbor :slight_smile:

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Robert, many thanks for your recent posts. You’ve given me a lot more to think about.

Apart from Sowell’s ‘Inside American Education’, what other 5-6 books did you read? Can you paste their titles? I’ve read Dumbing Us Down' by John Gatto and Dumbing Down Our Kids - Why American Kids Feel Good About Themselves but Can’t Read, Write, or Add’ by Charles Sykes.

I’ve also read a lot of Harold Stevenson’s cross-cultural studies on academic performance between nations and I shared my insights on this thread - http://forum.brillkids.com/general-discussion-b5/why-japanese-and-chinese-kids-outperform-american-children-(research-article)/. And this one http://forum.brillkids.com/teaching-your-child-math/proportion-of-el-time-devoted-to-math-(split-from-2-year-old-thread)/msg89195/

I’m in Europe and I’m seeing the same trends in schools here - the ‘feel good’ and ‘self-esteem’ syndrome, the substitution of solid academic content for indoctrination, etc. At least by reading these books, I’ll know what exactly is going on in those schools and how to prepare myself in case my kid ends up in one of them. As they say 'to be forewarned is to be forearmed’. What are the other titles you read? Thank you.

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Hi A_BC,

“I am so thankful to Mr. Levy for sharing his valuable experience with us. Now my question is about David’s leisure time. Does he have any hobbies he’s doing “just for fun”?”

You’re welcome, and I would say the hobby that he likes most is computer programming. I had him take some pretty tough classes in “C” when he was, maybe, 8 years old - and like any kid who’s actually learning something, he didn’t enjoy it much. But then he got the hang of it, and from what I can tell (I don’t program), he’s very, very, good, and just loves it. Prior to that, about the only thing that he’d want to do was play with his toys. I never enjoyed sports much, although he did the Karate thing and baseball (for very young types). But programming was the only hobby that was really all his. One thing that comes to mind that I haven’t mentioned before, although it doesn’t fit your question was that he would wiped out, because of doing the math, by 9:00 to 10:00 at night (depending on his age). This worked great for all of us, because when hit the bed, he never, ever, had trouble sleeping, he was solid asleep - and as parents, that certainly made our lives easier.

“How much time does he spend on them and how do you let him know that “there is a time for playing and there is time for working””

That was very simple. When it was time for working, I told him. No negotiation - I simply told him. When it wasn’t time for working, then it was time for playing.

“P.S: BTW, I am a neighbor smile”

Please define what “neighbor” is - you know who I am.