Recommendations for good Abacus program

Early Learning Teaching Your Child Math
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[b]parents[/b] would like to achieve with soroban.
I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'd like to get to where I can do mental math; and that's my goal for my child - add, subtract, multiply, divide... hopefully by the time they enter school, but I do realize that most soroban training starts at age 4. I think on a site like Brillkids, the goals would be similar. It's less about catching up to others since this site is mostly for preschool aged children, and probably more about either learning proficiently or gaining an edge (or just part of an at home curriculum that will go on during the school years)

I’ll think this over a little more and add to it tomorrow. Thanks again!

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Having thought about this for a few days, I can safely say that my primary goal when I introduce the soroban to my child will be to develop a better sense of numbers and math. Ultimately, I’d like my child to be able to do simple math in their head fairly quickly. It would be pretty sweet if they could do long division (2 digit +) in their head, but certainly addition and multiplication would be really helpful.

My understanding, as of now, is that the child learns how to properly manipulate the soroban physically. And then once they seem to handle being able to do this successfully, a surrogate soroban is introduced: a picture or drawing of a soroban to perform finger movements as the person “imagines moving the beads”

Once this is done, then it’s an easy step to mental math. And from there, developing speed and accuracy are where many students advance.

But what if there’s not really anyone that understands the pitfalls, problems, the process of going from lack of skill to skillful, etc? This is all where a video series/program might be able to help… otherwise I have to try really hard to find a local coach or program (that are mostly out of state from where I’m at).

Like I said earlier, I think this is more “getting ahead” than catching up. In my mind though, it’s almost neither - it’s creating a mechanism that when mastered will make it a lot easier to move into more abstract math when older. How easy will be to do derivatives and trig and such when the number calculation is easy as pie?

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Hi Tom,

We really need people like you in the forum!

My first objective with Soroban is to teach my DS mental math.

I have a question for you: my toddler has been using LM for about a year with Brillkids curriculum and Shichida 65-days program. I am planning to use Jones Geniuses around the age of two. But I have no clue on when to start teaching with Soroban. What do you suggest?

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Hi A_BC

Thanks for the warm Welcome :slight_smile:

You’re going to have to help me out a bit since I’m new and I don’t know all the lingo yet.

What do you mean DS mental math?

As for a time frame for starting Soroban, I’ve personally started students as young as 3, but I’ve seen some of the “Grand Masters” teach even younger students.
Some of the requirements I have when a student starts is that they are able to say and write numbers from 1 - 10. And that they can sit (or a reasonable proximity) for at least 10 minutes at a time.
They’re really rough guides to see if a student has the raw skills to manipulate the beads on a soroban as well as being able to write or at least say the answer for a problem I give them.

I think if you’re willing to be a bit creative and be flexible with your child, you can start teaching the principles at an any age. I believe the only thing you SHOULDN’T teach your child is to memorize math as “facts” It’s one of the 2 most common reasons a student can’t do the Soroban mental math (it’s called Anzan)

So what you want to do is to let your child get so used to using a Soroban that it becomes easier for his mind to do the Soroban or Anzan than it is for him/her to use math facts. Then your child will use Anzan because it’s easier, and it will be easier for him to do Anzan in a virtuous circle.

So I know I haven’t given you an exact answer, and it’s because I think you will be a better judge than I can. But I’m hoping you can keep some of the ideas I gave you in mind to help guide you.

Let me know if I can help explain anything more clearly.

Thanks,
Tom

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My daughter Ella started attending Soroban classes a couple of months after she turned 3. The only requirements were being able to recognize and write the numbers 1-10. The Soroban school she goes to typically accepts children 5 years old and above but had no problems taking her on after her trial lesson and assessment. For the typical 5-year-old beginner, they said that the child usually develops Anzan/mental math skills after about 8 months to 14 months of 2-hour/week lessons, depending on how much they practice. The more you practice, the faster you get to the Anzan stage. For Ella, I am not sure if it will take longer for her to learn Anzan because she is younger and has a shorter attention span, or if she will learn it faster, because she is younger and her right brain is relatively more open. At this point, after 2 months of soroban practice, her fingers can work the beads so deftly that she almost does not have to look at the abacus to calculate a string of addition and subtraction problems. And I was also advised not to teach Ella to memorize math facts because, when she eventually gets to the Anzan stage, it will be far faster and easier for her to solve problems by Anzan.

By the way, Tom, do you teach the one-hand or two-hand method for the Soroban?

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Hi aangeles,

Where does Ella learn Soroban? in the US?

In my program students start using their dominant hand and a non standard 2 finger approach. It’s a varient that I’ve found to be easier for kids to understand on the Soroban and to learn Anzan faster.

But to be perfectly honest it’s only after about 5th or 6th dan that most students even start to feel the need to incorporate some two handed techniques.

As for Ella’s Anzan, most of the time I’ve found that kids who start earlier have an easier time learning Anzan. I think its because they don’t have the problem of unlearning any bad habits that schools might teach them.

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Hi Tom,

Ella attends soroban classes in Manila, Philippines. Her soroban school uses the two-handed technique (which I prefer) for more balanced development of the right and left brain. However, we will eventually be moving back to Chicago so I am gonna be looking for teachers there in a couple of years. I hope that by that time she will already have learned Anzan. In the meantime, I am also using several right brain programs with her everyday in the hopes of boosting/improving her visualization skills which, hopefully, will help in learning Anzan.

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Dear Aangeles,

Do you mind sharing what types of right brain programs you are doing with Ella? As I am also keen for my daughter to learn Anzan as well. I have also bought an abacus, but there are no available classes nearby which teaches kids their age (she is about the same age as Ella).

Thank you very much!

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Hi joy mum,

I use the following materials for right brain activities:

  1. Wink program for Eye Exercises, Photoeyeplay, Mental Imaging, Observation Training, Memory Linking, and Photographic Memory.
  2. GD Picture Dictionary, Tweedlewink, Wink to Learn, Babybit, and LR files for Flashcards.
  3. Mandalas - http://www.homeeducation.sg/everyday-mandala
  4. Photographic Memory - http://leftandrightbraineducationtoys.blogspot.com/2010/10/photographic-memory-kit.html
  5. Tangrams - http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Tangoes-USA-JRT001-Jr/dp/B000F6RWW8
  6. Logico and FunThinkers games
  7. audiobooks and music cds for foreign languages
  8. tuning forks for perfect pitch

I also have some RB Ipad apps and Memory Magic but have not really used them much because I am still trying to limit her screen and computer time. Check out Shen-Li’s blog for more info on right brain education: http://www.figur8.net/articles/right-brain-education/ She is much much more knowledgable about this topic than I will ever be! :biggrin:

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Thank you very much aangeles for your answer.Karma. You are a big inspiration :slight_smile:
I love love that tangoes game. :yes: Shame they do not sell it here in Slovakia. :frowning:
I just wrote in another thread that we would like to know your miracle schedule lol

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Tom,
Can you give me some examples of math facts that should not be taught prior to soroban training? If my child figures out that 2 apples added to 2 apples will always equal 4 apples, is that bad? I would hate to inadvertently thwart my own goal by doing something counter productive, so an explanation would be appreciated.

I’m going to want to pursue soroban training as soon as possible, but I do not know when that is. I think somewhere you may have mentioned the requisite is to be able to write down the numbers? what if stamps are used instead (having 10 stamps for each digit 0-9) to just stamp the answer? Or if I’m wrong about your requisites, please correct me.

Also to answer your question: DD = Dear Daughter, DS = Dear Son, DH = Dear Husband, SN = Special Needs are frequent abbreviations used around here. I don’t see the point of using DS because typing out “son” is only one additional letter and doesn’t require using the shift key, and therefore doesn’t really save any time or effort and can lead to questions like yours (which will take a lot more time answering than the additional typed letter), LOL.

I’ve been practicing, and can sort of do problems in my head; just not that great at it/very slow. I still occasionally mess up carrying or borrowing across a few place values. I’m impressed that kids can get the hang of it so quickly.

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pokerdad, thanks for your post! i had similar questions and am looking forward to the answers too!

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Hi Everyone.

My husband just told me about a colleague of his from Egypt, that will be training teachers for the abacus for use with younger children, under 10.

I showed my husband this video and he was sooo impressed!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7M6dRU80Rk

I am interested in learning it for myself, and to teach/help my children.

What is involved and what are your thoughts?

Thanks.
Ayesha

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thanks for sharing the ideas and concern.

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Hi Guys,

Sorry I haven’t updated in a while, I was taking a trip to Japan to help out at the Christmas Cup Soroban Contest.
There was over 1000 students between the ages of 3 to 52 competing for various titles.
I’ll be updating pictures and videos soon, so please look forward to it.
sneak peak The 3 year old was doing multiplication and division!!! :blink:

To PokerDad,

When I said that certain math facts shouldn’t be taught, it’s based off my experience of how rote memorization can be detrimental to learning how to do Anzan correctly.
The best way I can describe it is to imagine a river carving a groove through dirt. The more water that flows through the groove will make it deeper and wider so that it becomes easier for more water to flow though it. In this case, if your son rote memorizes a math fact (ie. 1+1 = 2) he might want to keep using that skill since its easier for his brain to get the answer. This might make it harder for him to learn and use Anzan without some additional effort since that “groove” will be newer and less deep.
Of course as you’ve noticed yourself it’s possible to rewrite old habits to make new “grooves” with effort.

I hope this helps,
Tom

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Thanks for the answers!

I think I understand what you’re getting at. There’s a difference if I add two digits together in my head just from sort of knowing what they are, and visualizing the soroban while I mentally manipulate it. I’m a bit slower visualizing at the moment, and when I get to three digits, it’s sometimes hard to remember how many beads there are in the middle (LOL)

Am looking forward to the videos from the trip… but… but…

I hope you have a way of getting a hold of the 3 year old’s trainer. If you make a post around here that a three year old was doing multiplication and division (regardless of whether it was anzan or not), people are going to perk up and want to know what all went into it.
I know that I want to know…

curious to know the progression, when it started, and any unique factors that may or may not be duplicable

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Hi everyone!

Today, I had my first abacus lesson and was slightly intimidated. After playing around with it, I can now count to 100 easily. This is an online version at the bottom of this site to learn:

http://www.soroban.com/howto_abacus_eng.html

And the girls really liked these videos (cannot upload to the video gallery):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD5ALPHQuC0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsioZdFSq3M&feature=related

and some videos uploaded by Chris: http://forum.brillkids.com/mgallery/?sa=search

I am now teaching the girls to count to 100, and they get it at 4 years 7 months! I look forward to my next lesson tomorrow. I think I can actually learn this to teach/help the girls - especially because I am a visual and tactile learner. :yes:

@ momtobaby > Thanks for the links that will help us!

@ Soroban > What do you think of this Soroban handbook?: http://webhome.idirect.com/~totton/abacus/

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Hi guys,

PokerDad > The 3 year olds trainer was her mom. But to be perfectly honest that gives a really biased impression on her situation. Her older sister (I think she’s 6) attends a Soroban school in Japan that currently has 1 student who holds the record for the youngest 10th Dan in the world, and the current record holder for the youngest 9th dan in the world (6 years old). Her sister isn’t the record holder, but runs in the same general circle as them. Their teacher used to compete in international competitions and rank pretty well. So, if you want my opinion on how to get a 3 year old to learn multiplication, you just need to have incredibly dedicated parents and students who practice Soroban for 4 to 6 hours per day (more on the weekends) under the tutelage of a world ranking teacher.

Ayesha Nicole > I liked the videos for the most part. I just don’t agree with the last in the series about the various techniques for moving the beads like the "flick. The website is ok for adults to read, but I’ve always felt like it’s too dry to be used with kids meaningfully. I also think the explanations they give are geared towards an academic adult understanding of the Soroban. Which I think is very important to know, but may be overkill for a parent just trying to make sure their kids understand how to use an Soroban.

Anyway I’m really glad to be back.

Just in case you didn’t see my other posts I’ve put up a new website with videos from my trip to Japan, please check it out to see the 3 year old in action.

http://www.learnsoroban.com/

Thanks,
Tom

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Thank you Tom for the update and the answers to questions.

It seems like the world of competitive soroban is a bit different than what perhaps most of us would be seeking. It’s nice to know the potential is there for really great math abilities.

9th Dan at 6 years old?? Wow.

What does a 6 year old 9th Dan do during math class? I have visions of “ugh… please teacher, can we get to the algebra equations already?”

The mother of the 3 year old is a bit inspirational if not also a bit over the top for what I’d want to do (and probably what most of us around here would want… which says a lot seeing as we’re on a early learning site). I just can’t imagine 4-6 hours of math per day at age 3… or age 20 for that matter :nowink:

However, the point is that she was able to teach her child multiplication and division, and I should point out that the 3 year old handled the pencil quite nimbly. That’s encouraging to know that these things ARE POSSIBLE. The question is how much of the surroundings, influence, practice, importance that’s placed on it, etc is necessary to achieve some level of competency as opposed to mastery where the child enters a competition. I’m not against competition, I’m just not all that interested in it unless my child really loves to compete and it’s a motivating device. Most people don’t think of 3 year olds as competitive, but maybe I’m wrong about that [feel free to correct me everyone]

I also want to point out to everyone reading this thread that the older sibling in the video was doing the multiplication without using the abacus. It sat to the side as she worked through the problems mentally (you can see her using her fingers as she mentally works with the image in her mind), and we’re not talking about basic multiplication here (such as 6x8); I’m pretty sure this was multi-digit multiplication. Maybe Tom can give us an example of a multiplication or division problem these kids were working through.

Tom, how much technique is necessary for success? You mentioned the video that talks about the flick… is it important to spend time initially learning the basic finger movements for optimized speed, or do you just jump in and start using the beads and worry about technique later?
Along those lines, I’ve wanted to know what sort of “warm up” drills the kids do. In some videos I’ve seen, the teacher instructs or talks about doing a drill or drills, but no one has ever put a drill on youtube or written down a drill. These kids would work through their drills to build speed. Perhaps you can give us an idea if there are drills that can be done, and what these would look like?

I’ve seen 10th Dan on youtube doing mind shattering math problems… but what’s the difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd… 9th, 10th Dan? Is it speed, accuracy, complexity, or a combination of these? If complexity plays a role, I’d be curious to see a problem that a 1st Dan can solve vs a 10th Dan… that would give us an idea of the capability of the abacus.

As for instruction; is there a way to break it down into step by step? Obviously everyone understands different concepts at different stages, but is there a basic outline? If it’s not linear, then perhaps there are just “stages” that should be kept in mind??

Do you like using a soroban with the clearing mechanism? is one advised for kids, or just use a classic one that does not have it? Mine doesn’t have it, and it’s a pain to clear the darn thing and sometimes the beads move whenever I have to move the soroban from one spot to another, which then requires that I clear it out again (wasting time)

Thanks again! (hopefully my questions help you with your videos)

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Here are a couple more link to add to the discussion. Both of these are for Soroban Abacus.

http://www.japansociety.org.uk/schools/resources/downloads/soroban-the-japanese-abacus/

And this one - http://www.sorobancymru.co.uk/ This site has a great abacus font for making flashcards, worksheets, and LR/PPT files.

Both sites have workbooks and are full of stuff. You need to spend some time looking around.