PokerCub Swimming Update + Additional Discussion

Early Learning Early Learning General Discussions
1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaXoFyHw1uY

This video was taken last evening on 1/13 when Cub was (is) 29 weeks old.

This is what graduation from lessons looks like!

A few things, sorry about the quality, PokerMom took the video with her phone and I had to rotate and then attempt to remove the hum of the pump… the pump was going hard as it was roughly 0 degrees F outside and maybe 30 F in that little room which is why it looks so steamy and why Cub was eager to hop back into the tub!
lol

As you may or may not know, we began swimming at 14 weeks old. There was about three or four weeks there where we didn’t swim because I threw out my back (putting the cover back on the tub of all things!) and some really harsh illness.

We’re currently working on diving/throwing face first and still working on flipping from a cold stop. We’ll take our time on those. Cub basically has it all down other than the flip from the cold stop (though he has done it a few times). For example, if he plays with his rubber duck on the edge of the shallow to deep end and then slides into the deep, he can rescue himself. If he sits and does the same, he rescues himself, and if he stands on the seat and holds onto the side eventually losing his balance, he’ll save himself. Here, he’s falling in from the side.

Our methods are discussed further on the old blog postings (sorry, haven’t updated the blog in a VERY long time!)

Additional discussion…
As per my very first post on this forum, I have some work cut out for me regarding PokerMom. Sure, she’s into it right now (him pulling himself up and cruising when he’s only 6 months, etc) but she’s made it known that my plans (though I’m not sure if she knows it’s my plan) will not jive with her. If it were up to me, we’d do all the EL stuff and just homeschool and probably start the college studies way early (like prior to age 14). I see no reason not to, and I’d like to completely eschew the entire education system in favor of me doing the teaching and him socializing in group settings such as parent groups, cub scouts, martial arts classes, maybe swim team if he does that, etc etc.

I personally think the education system (school in basically all its forms) is merely 20% as effective as a hardcore homeschool environment (and I don’t mean grinding out 8 hours per day either). However, my wife is an administrator at a local private school. If things go the way I think they will, Cub will be out of place before she ever considers enrolling him (she’s told me he’ll stay home until he’s 6… but will force me into compulsory preschool at age 3)

I guess I’m saying all this as a way to perhaps brainstorm on what I can say or do down the road to prevent the inevitable clash between her dogmatic beliefs (you don’t get a masters in education without being inculcated with a lot of false educational doctrine such as teaching to the whole child, constructivist math, discover everything for yourself, etc).

I’m not lying when I say that I fear our differences in viewpoints could be strong enough to divide us permanently in divorce court, which I won’t let happen as it would basically defeat the entire purpose of my dissent… but I say it just to point out our differences are so contrasting and each of us is extremely opinionated… my opinions come not from a masters degree, but from reading this forum and in reflecting on my own education (in other words, my opinion is not without merit, but from her perspective is an uneducated and ignorant one)… really difficult for me to find a way to win.

So far my plan is simply to carry on with the EL (which PokerMom seems to go along with or not resist) and then take it so far until she’s basically forced to accept my view… a bit Machiavellian perhaps, but as an EL parent, there’s no other way.

Ideas?

Comments?

Encouragement?

All comments (positive or negative) welcomed! Thank you!!

2

Wow, well done cub! (& mom and dad)! Incredible progress. What was the name of the swimming book you recommended? Think I’d better get it!

With regard to the difference of opinion on education, it is a very difficult situation, one that many of us can relate to, whether it is coming from partners, family or friends. My approach is to simply continue teaching as much as possible in the most playful and fun way possible - I try to remember Doman’s advice ‘always stop before they want to stop’. Whenever anyone criticises me for EL, I point out that my kids LOVE it and my toddler begs me for more. Once, when my dad saw Sophie literally begging “just one more lesson, pleeeaaassseeee” and “can we do Saxon maths, pleeeaaasssee”, they began to understand a little.

From a psychological point of view, be careful of being hardline as this generally pushes the other person into being more hardline than the were originally. Always try to be open to negotiation (or at least give that impression anyway :wink: ) as they will be more likely to see your point of view if they think you are trying to see theirs.

Anyway, the most likely way to change anyone’s mind with regard to EL is when they personally witness the results - well-rounded, kind children with an insatiable thirst for knowledge!

PS I also believe in teaching to the whole child, constructivist math, discover everything for yourself - these beliefs and EL are not mutually exclusive, they just inform my approach to EL.

3

I think you can still do a lot of EL stuff and see great progress with PokerCub. But you can dial it down to acceptale for your Wife. And when/if your child does go to public or private school there is always the option to afterschool.
I find it odd when someone who works in education is not all for early education. I am curious as to what her arguments against it are.
I would hate for the differing of options to cause so much strife. So hopefully middle ground can be met.

4

And great job PokerCub and Dad and Mom. He saved himself very well!

5

Tigercub is very young still. I would tell her that you still would like to homeschool but tone it down a little and be open to at least hearing what she says. Agree to disagree for now. This issue is important to both of you but you will probably find over time that you both will come together more. She is fine with what you are doing now so just roll with it. It is still 5.5 years down the road the time you are worrying about and a lot will change from then to now. This one issue is important to both of you but don’t let it cause resentment and bitterness that it kills your marriage. If down the road she still wants him to go to school you can afterschool but 5 years from now she might see that you are doing such a good job and your methods are working that she is fine with you continuing. Focus on the here and now. There is a unresolvable conflict right now but don’t let that carry through to resentment.

6

You guys are amazing!

I think your wife will eventually accept your view. Experiencing such progress unfold each day is a big eye-opener - enough (for me at least) to debunk several educational views I have.

7

Bring pokermum out on a fine date (leave pokercub with granny?),
Buy her a nice piece of rock (if you can afford to,if not any special token will do)…
Clink your glasses…
And offer her your proposal. (Get down on one knee if you want to)
Get her to understand that you really want to do this and you need her full support as the mother and wife.
:biggrin:

Cheers!!

Btw, well done poker family!

8

Oh Baz! lol lol lol
Great job on the swimming.
I think you have a couple of issues but since preschool pops up first that’s the one to think about. Plus that is the only one you have a say in, as she works at a private school! Cub will end up at that school but it may not be all as bad as you think ( more on that later)
Preschool is fun! It also isn’t full time! There is no reason cub can’t go to preschool have a blast with a few other kids and still be an EL legend. :biggrin: preschool is also where you have some choice. Your wife doesn’t work at a preschool :biggrin: so do your research, find the best fit. It may be there is an advanced preschool nearby, or a short day preschool or even one that doesn’t teach then anything but believes that playing in the mud and painting is good for the children. Imagine cub at age 3 arms covered in mud looking for worms and tell me its all bad? You don’t need to EL 12 hours a day. Cub could be the child that reads the others stories or who asks the questions that force the standards up. ( my girl did this and her teacher was much improved by the end of the year)
You may be able to delay preschool if you get active in a playgroup environment prior to that age. No point in starting now. I doubt cub wants anyone but mum and dad to play with at the moment. She will use the socialisation angle for that one as obviously the learning part will be covered.
For school, I just don’t see you with much choice here. Sorry. I can’t see you convincing her that he shouldn’t go to school. Due to her thoughts school isn’t necessarily for education. She sees it as more than that. Plus she works there. And this could be your saving grace. She works there. She will indeed be keen to ensure cub gets the education he deserves. She would be a believer in teaching to the individual child so there is a pretty good chance you will be able to CO school, part school or even set cubs curriculum to be done during school hours ( this is what I am working towards here! ) so cub might be doing Saxon 7/6 while his buddies in class learn to tell the time. You will have more pull to get what you want from the school.
Now I am not suggesting you give up on the idea of home schooling but I wouldn’t be as stressed about it. (but I know you have a baby so you will still worry about all this :smiley: ) but I will say the only way to convince her it isn’t the right choice for poker cub is to make sure he would be completely wasting his time in going. So continue doing your EL. That’s the best way to ensure you get to keep him at home. She has been so open to your ideas so far I think you have a long way to go before you bump heads against something.
A few ideas that might help her see you are a good teacher. She believes in discovery education so I suggest you give cub some discovery education activities ( while she is looking of course!) perhaps try a sensory bin, casually mentioning that the ice cubes in the warm water are a way for cub to discover hot/ cold and melting all by himself :biggrin: then maybe a fractions puzzle so he can “discover” fractions all by himself. I am sure you will think of many ideas over time.
Personally my hubby and I bump heads on education ALL the time. It’s probably our most common argument. Fortunately he doesn’t undermine me directly in front of the kids. He has never said “hey Nat, just don’t do it” he doesn’t help or even support it but he has to admit to seeing the benefits. ( man my kids brains go soft (read stupid!) when we take a break!) Every one I know thinks I push my kids too hard. They all say holidays are for holidays and they get enough homework from school. That is what every great achiever hears on the path to learning. It’s what every EL mum and dad here deals with every day. It isn’t just your wife who thinks that way. At least your wife has your sons best interests at heart truly. So it isn’t all bad.
In this house the problem was solved but task division. I do education, full stop. He doesn’t. I don’t like your chances of getting that from your wife but you may be able to get educational control until age 6 if you word it carefully. I reckon you should be able to convince her to skip preschool.
A child’s education isn’t worth a family separation. Be sure it never gets that far there are so many other options, after schooling being just one of them.

9

Opinions aren’t all “objective”, they are rather emotional, no matter what everybody thinks. There are feelings, memories, your parents told you so, your friends think that, etc. So don’t argue to much (in the “normal” arguing way). You will only push her in the other direction!
There is no learning with a traumatized child! No matter what, happy and well-adjusted parents are the great foundation for happy and smart children. If there is always a bad mood at home the child will feel it and want to find the source. Maybe he thinks he’s the problem or learning is the problem…

I don’t have much experience with arguing about EL, but I’m vegan… And people are very emotional about their food! No matter how good my arguments are… and even if they agree with me, there is the problem of the “emotional bond” with opinions… Their parents told them so, their friends told them so, the media told them so, they always ate meat, they have many good memories with eating meat, meat is a stable thing in their life, etc.

Some advices:
1) Think positive (the most important advice)
I don’t know if you belive in god or somethink else. I belive in the “positive force”… Sometimes I meditated. My mantra is “Everything turns out to be good.” And really… in most cases this will be the final case!!! As long as you are “good” yourself (Remember: Don’t argue. Don’t be negative. Don’t be rude.)
Step by step, little by little. You’ve had plenty of time to think about EL and homeschooling. She has this right, too.
Everything will be fine :wink:

2) Be happy about every little step.
Vegan topic: Nobody gets vegan from one day to another. If somebody says “One day a week I want to eat less meat” then compliment on this.
So if your wife says “yes” to one little thing but not the whole story, be as muuuuuch happy as you can be and show it and don’t look at the rest of the way or even the world map! (The journey is its own reward.)

3) Show positive examples.
Vegan topic: People think being vegan is very hard. So I invite them to cook with me. They see how easy and delicious it is.
Do some EL and be open to your wife to join in. People are social beings… if you and your baby have a really great time and much fun she will be part of it.

4) VIPS
Vegan topic: People are very attracted be famous people and by magazine articles. Peta for example has always some VIPs on their posters.
There are already some “famous” people out there speaking about EL and homeschooling. Leave some internet tabs open or something… (As always: Don’t be to offensive!)

5) Normal people
Vegan topic: I have many vegeterian and vegan friends. If I visit the cafeteria of our university with a meat eating friend and he/she knows that we’ll sit at the “vegan table” he/she will automatically buy something vegetarian. Because everybody wants to be part of the group (the human as a social animal) he/she will be much more positive about this topic as if one vegan would sit at the “meat table”. Sometimes I’m so surprised, because we didn’t even speak about this topic, but he/she will apologize for eating meat (this isn’t my intention).
Maybe you can find some people doing EL stuff and homeschooling in your local area and invite him/her to offee or dinner and speak about EL and homeschooling in a very motivated way.

6) Videos
Vegan topic: Maybe you know the videos about animals suffering… They are very compelling.
Show your wife some videos of really smart kids and docus about kids studying at 14 years old. Something like that.

You can read: How to win friends and influence people
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/1439199191/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=1439199191&linkCode=as2&tag=wachundlern-21">How to Win Friends and Influence People
and
Change of Heart: What Psychology Can Teach Us about Spreading Social Change
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/159056233X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=159056233X&linkCode=as2&tag=wachundlern-21">Change of Heart: What Psychology Can Teach Us about Spreading Social Change
There are much more great advices in this books to “change” people with out these nasty arguments (heated arguments - nothing about a normal talk)… Quarreling makes stones out of hearts ^^

10

I don’t have much time to comment right now, but I’m very thankful to each of you and all the great ideas and thoughts here. I’m going to continue to ponder it all. The reason for posting the discussion now is that I ruminate so much that it’s nice to have a few years or months worth of a head start, and like some of you pointed out, it’s far too soon for me to freak out and really force the issue right now… though the wife and I have started having some discussions but I mostly try to delay. That will be my default tactic: delay

Seastar, the book I read was called “Watersafe Your Baby in One Week”… ha ha, one week, riiiight… aside from the one week part, the progression was really good and without it, I wouldn’t have even attempted this. It took other parents here on this forum to encourage me to even give it a try. I was fully ready to punt the responsibility to a “professional” (and mind you, my background in swimming likely would far exceed that of the instructor, but I’m not an instructor - or at last wasn’t until now, ha ha!)

please continue to post your thoughts if you have any!
:smiley:

11

What a great swimmer! Amazing job.

As lots of people have said I wouldn’t worry too much about cub’s schooling just yet. Your wife has accepted your EL adventures so far and people’s views often change slowly over time without them even being aware of it until suddenly they are the ones talking about EL and homeschooling. Just keep going as you are and see how she feels in a few years time. As a school teacher I can honestly say that is one reason I don’t want to send my children to school. I know how hard it is for a school to truly educate a child who is more than 1 or 2 grades ahead of the class (unless they have a true gifted program or allow children to flow between different levels for each subject or similar). So by the time you get close to school age when you really need to make a decision pokercub is going to be SO far advanced of his peers that she may realise that it really isn’t in his best interests anyway.

And I agree that happy mum and dad is vitally important for happy and learning cub!

12

Manda & Jenene,

Since you teach outside the home, would you agree with my assessment that normal school is maybe about a fifth as effective academically as an aggressive home school? (trying to be careful how I word this, I’m basing this on potential results, at a normal school a kid can’t get more than maybe 2 grades ahead)

Thanks to this thread, I avoided a big issue last night.
:biggrin:

Still chewing on many of the comments here and digesting, they taste more vegan than I had anticipated :biggrin:
Thanks again all!!

13

Well, I would study my opponent. You study former poker tournaments, you study “successful” EL/Accelerated Learner parents, now it’s time to study teachers who finally saw the light. Look up all of the teachers you can find online or who have written books that converted themselves to being pro-homeschool. Learn their reasons why, uncover the common thread among them. Compare them to your wife and see how the philosophies match up.

I’m not certain that full on homeschooling for 12 years is best for my kids given our particular situation and what our end goals are, but it can be the right choice 100% for others such as yourself. So don’t take my post as a frantic “you MUST home school your child!” …more like, if this is where your gut is leading you, then take a methodical approach in how to best help your spouse see the light over the course of several years by studying those who have gone before you. Your viewpoint doesn’t matter to HER, it’s HER viewpoint that matters so that is what you need to learn about. Your reasons and motivations are coming from a completely different perspective.

I FOUGHT my husband, I mean FOUGHT to get him to agree to purchase LR. I think it was the pleading and tears at 1 am that finally made him cave. lol I don’t particularly recommend taking it “head on” and if I had known what I know now, I probably wouldn’t have because I would have used other methods to accomplish the same result. But I didn’t know much about infant literacy at the time and I fought as if my children’s entire future was staked on that decision. (maybe it was, who knows!) I wrestled with “I love my kids and I love my husband, and right now my husband is “against” my kids” and found myself in Mama bear mode. It’s very hard not to slip into that role. Now, my DH is the biggest advocate of EL and LR. He admits how happy he is that he lost that argument. I still feel it’s my job to educate my kids to the best of my ability, and that is entirely separate from my marriage although he has chosen to get on board with an EL parenting philosophy. He will probably never agree to spend as much on curriculum as I would like, but we’ll meet in the middle and I’ll find a way to educate them to my satisfaction regardless. Now I am ranting, but hopefully you found something useful somewhere in this post!

I didn’t know it when I got married, but how to educate the children can get people worked up in a similar way as deciding what religion to raise the children. If you don’t have that issue in your marriage, be grateful for it! I’m aiming for a happy medium in both.

14

And as a very logical person, I don’t know how much you get into Right Brain/LOA/Manifestation type of thinking, but hold the space that she’ll come around. And hold the highest belief for her and how amazing Poker Cub will turn out regardless. A little positive thinking can go a long way. :slight_smile:

15

TmT,

The combination of posts you made this morning were perhaps some of the best advice I had ever gotten on this forum (and that is saying a ton). Just wow. And you know me so well (how I study other players, how I study other parents, studied other swimmers, etc)…

Excellent idea, and found one little gem so far
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/821599/any-former-teachers-homeschooling-now

EDIT:
TmT, what’s “TAG”? when I see those particular letters in all caps like that I can only think of the poker acronym that is maybe the most common acronym in poker, ha ha ha

16

Well thanks, glad to be of service. :biggrin:

A common acronym for Talented and Gifted programs. Others call them GATE, Gifted and Talented Education. If you start researching gifted programs heavily, you’ll run into those a lot and maybe a few others. Best place to research some of those if you are interested is Hoagies Online. I’ll write a little more about this later when I have time.

17

I wanted to also say that right now you are collecting successes. For everything my kids learned, it gave me more credibility in my husband’s eyes. It’s no longer an “experiment” like it was in the beginning, not knowing if my kids would truly even learn to read effectively, now it’s legitimately their education. And my husband, once the biggest skeptic in the world, pretty much trusts me to just do what I need to do because he likes the outcome.

18

PokerDad, so glad to hear that you avoided a big issue with PokerMum!

I’m not sure how you would put a value on how much more effective home schooling could be compared to traditional schooling. Too many variables in that one. For example, are you just considering how quickly they can get through the math/reading/writing requirements or how many extra subjects they can study in depth or how much ‘free’ time they have to devote to other things such as building their own business or being involved in the community etc. I think that it just provides the possibility of a lot more options and of course more control over those options.

I also want to add to my earlier reply in saying that I am from Australia and we simply do not have the GIfted and talented options for schooling that seem to be available in the States so my view of formal schooling is obviously just traditional school. After reading TmT’s replies it has made me realize that there are a lot more options open to you if cub does need to be formally schooled.

19

http://publicschoolteachertohomeschoolmama.blogspot.com/2012/07/calling-all-former-teachers.html (I would contact this blogger to see if she could anonymously share the responses)

http://www.unpluggedmom.com/featured/schools-out-for-the-summers-former-teacher-turned-homeschooler/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIn1_Wr-Y3g

http://www.hiphomeschoolmoms.com/2011/06/a-public-school-teacher-talks-homeschooling/

http://www.goddessunplugged.com/articles/teachers.htm

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10133.aspx

http://www.stepbystephomeschooling.com/deschooling-myself

http://www.mamapedia.com/article/teachers-turned-homeschoolers

http://homeschoolcoach.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/former-teacher-becomes-home-educating-mom-but-why/

http://www.moniselseward.com/2012/05/confessions-of-a-former-public-school-teacher-before-i-can-homeschool-them-i-have-to-unschool-myself/

Before I copy all of google, I’ll stop there. But a quick search for “former teacher homeschool” turned up many, many pages.

And don’t be lured by wannabe, few-hours-of-resource-class-a week programs. I don’t think I have ever shared this on on here, but I was in a gifted program in a crappy school district and I can confidently say my talent was not properly nurtured. I was accelerated to early high school in the afternoons and the whole thing was handled pretty poorly overall by the school district. I actually missed a FULL year of math ENTIRELY. I don’t know who’s great idea that was, but I don’t recommend it. BUT, there are legit, really awesome gifted programs out there like Davidson, etc, which is what I am potentially far more interested in for my kids.

20

PokerFam, way to go!

As for any advice on how to approach the coming years … I would work with what you have right now. In other words, delay & see. Keep the oh-so-important peace for these next three years by just doing your thing (unless she’s forcing a standstill during the next three years because she realizes that while some 3 yr olds are still not potty trained and barely formulating sentences a well-stimulated three year old can read fluently and do basic math computations rivaling an 8 year old and that by five that child can surpass a fifth grader in today’s public school system … i’m counting on her not completely being up-to-date with that possibility bc then you may have issues sooner than preschool). Yes, these three years will absolutely FLY by (I cannot believe Joey is 3 already - or that we have TWO kids now!), but so much will depend on what you do in these next three yeas. So, wait and see. Life has a way of happening too, so just enjoy this time leading to preschool and at that time you may have someone (or unexpectedly maybe TWO or THREE little ones lol - who knows?) who can pass 1st grade before age four. If that’s the case, part-time preschool, as in two half days each week, won’t really do any harm because el, as you already know, really doesn’t take the ENTIRE day EVERY day. As we’ve mentioned before, understanding the facts and complexities of the world is brilliant, but having the social skills to share them with the rest of the world on laymen’s terms really comes in handy too. Feeling lonely in a well-populated area is not the happiest of feelings, which is why I suppose I’m pushing so hard to ensure that my kiddos are little socialites too (confident and true to themselves, but capable of being social within their self-identified circles, if that makes sense).

Anyway, these next three years, in my opinion, are the most crucial to get on the track you have in mind. Once you’re on that track, you’re on it, barring anything major or just randomly stopping completely. Knowing this, focus on that fact and allow the rest to take its course at that time. You will know much better once you get there, believe me, and so much can happen between now and then. By that point, the pudding may be all the proof you need and it may be she who is revamping her school to admit others like your son. What I would concentrate most on (rephrased: what I AM also concentrating most on over here) is in finding other parents locally who are on the same page as my kids. So far, I have met and made friends with a small handful of parents, some of whom I have successfully convinced to jump aboard the el train. The last thing I want is for my kids to feel that they are ODD - unique and confident, sure, but odd, unusual, and alone in their abilities bc they can’t identify with others who are like them, no way, which is why I am also jumping into the tag and gate curriculum locally and researching what i can to ensure that my children have similar-minded (in the thirst-for-knowledge sense) peers. Sometimes, locally is not the right fit, so even annual conferences are handy for such encounters (like a family reunion - maybe better? lol) For this reason I’ll son be making bigger pushes for us - forum parents and kids - to start meeting in person again (going back to school has really taken up a lot of my time :blush: ).

so that’s my two cents. off to take an quiz (joy).

enjoy, and keep up the great job! i’ll be looking for more posts - i was looking for an update on cub, glad to at least see it here!