Math supplement for advanced 3-year-old (almost 4)?

Early Learning Teaching Your Child Math
41

nee-

I think this a great overview of Singapore/MEP from a mom who has used both extensively. Compared to Saxon - which is rote until the end.

Since you have used Singapore, can you give me some specific differences between the two programs and why you changed? I was showing a friend MEP and she said it looks much like Singapore, which her kids are using. Since you have changed, obviously it's not totally the same.

Linda,
I will try. I really like Singapore. I have been using for about 6
years now, and it has served our family very well, imho. I think I
will still think that Singapore has the best word problems I’ve yet
to see.

Singapore challenges to think about math concepts and apply them. It
does not involve rote learning. It works on teaching you connections.

MEP also does that, but goes even further. It introduces concepts a
lot earlier than Singapore does. For example, I introduced my Y1 son
to inequalities today in lesson 7. My twins almost in Singapore 2
have not seen those symbols yet. In fact, I’ve had to work with my
dd who is doing Y5 of Singapore, and doesn’t really remember having
been introduced to them. She understands the concepts, just hasn’t
been introduced to the symbols.

Today my dd was working on lesson 7 of MEP 5, and working with
putting inequalities on a number line. Singapore doesn’t really even
touch this.

MEP allows students to really investigate the concept that there are
ways of arriving at the answers in a way that Singapore doesn’t.
Even in the upper levels of MEP, hands on manipulatives and concrete
objects are used to explain abstract concepts.

Just the lesson of the different ways of writing one. You won’t find
anything like that in Singapore. It is really stimulating mentally.

In Y2 the students were filling out a graph with the rule of there
were 3 more chestnuts than acorns. Sometimes they had to figure out
the number of acorns, sometimes the number of chestnuts, and for the
last section, they could make up their own numbers. Then they were
asked what the rule was, how they could express that rule (at least 3
different ways), and to write an equation for it. They were using
addition and subtraction sentences, and inequalities to do this. My
dh basically noted they were being taught functions. You won’t find
this type of depth in Singapore.

Singapore is a great program. It just isn’t as deep. It doesn’t
challenge them to think as much. Now maybe, if I used the TM’s -
which I don’t, it might be more similar. But the textbook and the
workbooks are pretty much straight math, although they do teach
strategies, and as I said, so far their word problems are
unparalleled, imho. However, students can go from Singapore 6 into
Algebra. It prepares them that well. There are a couple of areas
that are not covered, but easily taught, and may be covered in the
beginning of an algebra book.

But my kids doing MEP are already doing graphing, exponential
notation (not covered in lower level Singapore), discussing set
theory, natural numbers, etc. I am amazed at what they are being
exposed to. I know my dh (the science/math guy) is impressed with
this program.

I do confess we have had some crying and gnashing of teeth, and the
“I can’t do this” but they progress beyond that and realize that they
can do this, and they are not asking to stop. I think they are
really being challenged in a good way. Maybe I should have started
them a bit lower than I did, but time will tell. I think they can
handle it, but I may be wrong.

Christina

I hope tht helps.

42

I read that review a few months ago and it made little impact on me then, I just reread it now and it makes SOOO much more sence in the context of this discussion :yes: thanks!
Sonya I am glad to hear your opinions! It’s great to hear other views on programs especially from someone who has used them extensively. We are so far only using 5/4 so now I know to keep an eye out on the boredom factor as we progress up the levels. However I particularly like the spiral repetition nature of Saxon. For the simple reason that by revisiting and review in a spaced mannor the knowledge is cemented into memory permanently. I want them to remember as adults how to calculate the circumference of a circle ( how many of you can remember it right now?..only those of you with middle school kids lol ) without looking it up. I want them to drill the facts until they are memorized. Aiming for mastery. I want them to pass those exams with flying colors because that is what opens doors. I know at times this isn’t going to be much fun for them :frowning: But I will aim to make it as fun as possible. So far my kiddo doesnt mind :slight_smile:
However I also what them to know how to think, solve problems and manipulate numbers to find answers for themselves. So Saxon isn’t an only solution for me.
I think it’s important to have some clear goals. I might not use the same programs on all three kids. Plus my younger two are brighter in math then my child using Saxon. Actually they run in reverse order! Lol my son is about 3 years ahead, my middle one 2 years ahead, and my oldest 1 year ahead! Lol does that mean they got dumbed down by school? ( sadly I think this is actually the case :frowning: )
Off to check out the links Nadia posted…they look very inviting!

43

Sonya,

I’ve heard of kids who did VERY WELL with Saxon, even going on to complete Math and Engineering Degrees at age 16, so I wondered about your review. Do you think your bad experience with Saxon and just 1 child might be directly transferable to all children? For example, you praised Jones Geniuses, but I’ve read reviews of parents on this forum who had horrible experiences with Jones Geniuses and had to drop the program completely. I feel what works well for one child might not work well for another.

I understand that Saxon may not teach as much logic skills as MEP, but I think that could be easily remedied by using Saxon and MEP together: Saxon for math mastery, MEP for logic and thinking. Using MEP on its own might not just work for all kids, I’ve seen the curriculum and wondered how a child could really master math using the method. I feel it may be good for logic, but not so much for mastery of important math concepts.

And I’ve searched for reviews on Saxon on Amazon, Google, homeschool forums, etc., (trust me, I really have searched), and most have found VERY good success with it. Saxon is incremental in approach, and I feel that approach enables the material to go into long term memory. And if it goes a little boring for the child, then the parent might zip through the material faster. For example, the boy I mentioned above, his father said he had finished the 4 Saxon books preceding Algebra 1 in just over a year. (That gives an indication of how bright/hardworking the child was). My intention is to use Saxon for solid mastery of math (I love mastery), MEP for logic, and IXL to ensure curriculum requirements are covered. Your thoughts?

44

Nee1,

You have to do what is right for your family. You will certainly have all your basis covered. It is our experience, as well, that Saxon works. The question is, “Works for what?”. My son finished Saxon Algebra 1 middle of 6th grade. He scored post high school on the math portion of Stanford Achievement Test. Saxon works for that. It produces mastery of certain skills. When we switched to AoPS we had to retake Algebra 1. He didn’t have any idea what they were doing. He couldn’t solve problems that were out of the standardized test box. Knowing that, if you are going to supplement, I think it will be ok. But if your child starts dallying with math or is making basic computational errors you might want to reconsider your plan. That is the great part about all this…you can change your plan.

As a side note - your friend has a gifted math student. It wasn’t Saxon that produced that child. He was motivated. I find it hard to believe that any child can work through 4 Saxon books in one year doing all the problems. If you start skipping problems you miss the point of the spiral approach.

You are a good mom and you are aware of the limitations of these programs. You aren’t going to let your child suffer through a program that isn’t a match for them ( I did that - but I didn’t know any better), One of the tips I got from Chris at AoPS - is to use math games and puzzles. www.mathisfun.com has some wonderful puzzles. You can then check what your child really understands about numbers.

BTW - I can imagine that JG would end up as horrible experience for some people. This are not your standard curriculum. Labor intensive and there isn’t a daily schedule with the exact thing you are to do next. We love it. I’ve used it with my 23 month old who has mastered all his numbers to 20 forward and backward. Can accurately place the dots on the numbers and is just beginning to add and subtract. The concept is a bit difficult still. However M&Ms seem to help. I do daycare for a 3 year old with Down Syndrome and we use it for her as well. She attends preschool now and will till she enters kindergarten in 2 years. Math wise she could pass kindergarten. This is the perfect program for her. The social workers were hoping she could grasp 1-3 this year. Well, she has mastered 0-20 and has started adding and and subtracting numbers also. Math seems to be the hardest subject for DS children or at least it is according to her parents. But it isn’t for everyone.

All this to say, you plan is probably just fine.

45

Sonya,

Thank you for your insights. I’m grateful.

Please, what are your comments on this combination: Singapore Math + MEP + IXL?
So, Singapore Math (for mastery), MEP (for logic and depth), IXL (for curriculum requirements). I’ve read about Singapore Math and it appears to be quite good too.

46

Hi Anna,

Have you heard of Calculus By and For Young People (ages 7, yes 7 and up) by the Mathman? I know it has an age on it, but I don’t think you have a need to worry about that. :stuck_out_tongue:

I plan on getting it myself to explore what I could use with my kiddos to get them into a Calculus way of thinking at an early age, being a bit of a math geek myself.

http://www.mathman.biz/

47

Hello Bri!

It’s good to have you back! I have read about the Mathman on another homeschooling forum, and was planning to look more into it when Ella gets older. I may have to do my research a little earlier than I expected, though. :smiley:

Thanks for the link!

48

Sonya, Manda, and nee,

Thank you so much for sharing your insightful comments and invaluable experience! After reading and rereading your posts and doing some more research on my own, I have decided to use the following approach for math (at least for the foreseeable future):

Soroban - for mental math and mastery
Singapore and MEP - for critical thinking and problem solving skills
Beast Academy, Hands On Equations, and Life of Fred - for fun

Now, my question is, if we are already doing Soroban for mastery, do I have anything else to gain by adding Jones Math 3?

49

Oh yes you would certainly gain something! A headache! lol lol lol from math overload! Jokes aside I think you have all bases covered. Singapore and soroban or ( MEP and soroban) would probably cover everything on their own :slight_smile: whatever is missed will be so minute it won’t be noticed amongst her skills :biggrin:
I like how you listed them…someone had better tell my kids that MEP comes under critical thinking and problem solving rather than FUN! :wink: but don’t tell Ella!
Oh one point, I know you have taught measurement already, but others reading this for ideas…I am not sure any of the programs mentioned do a particularly good job of teaching measurement so perhaps look for a supplement, for that one category or just focus on it a bit in the kitchen. It’s difficult to teach the basic concepts on paper, it needs to be physical.

50

We use Horizons K, Singapore 1 and MEP 1 with my 4 year old - the reason I use so many is that she likes to chop and change a lot and gets bored easily (which especially Horizons can do if you keep at it day after day as it is very spiral) I find that Horizons K seems to follow much of Singapore 1 - I am not sure what will happen when she starts Horizons 1. Despite MEP working with much smaller numbers than either of the other two programmes it is problem based and so works very well and she enjoys it a lot and it gets her thinking. Very often after a time doing MEP she will find the other concepts in the other programmes much easier to manage.

With your child I would probably do a mixture of curricula - firstly because she flies through it and you need to check she has the facts mastered and also that she can practice it all in depth - I would also advise Singapore CWP and IP for depth, but at the same time move on with a certain curriculum so that she can cover more topics. Math could land up being quite expensive doing it this way which is why using free curricula like MEP will also be necessary. I would also try things like children’s sudoku and logic puzzles and Kakuro as well as any other puzzles as they also help mathematical thinking and are fun to do.

51

@ Nee,

You will have all your bases covered with Saxon and MEP. You can use IXL but I’m not sure it is necessary. The first 4-6 years of homeschooling are very parent intensive and time is going to eventually be your issue. There is tons of great curriculum out there but you can’t do it all. You need to watch out for burnout in both parent and child. We need to live as well. :biggrin:

@aangeles,

We are going to use JG for the memory training and covering skills to mastery quickly. I’m not sure you need Math 3 but there are things in the JG program that I think are helpful - memorizing prime numbers to 1000 for example. I think for the current time, you might be on a math overkill. But if Ella loves it, it’s hard to tell her to stop. Next year, it might be something to look at again. If you like the JG program, there are things in there that you won’t get anywhere else. But she is working on the soroban so Math 3 may end up being redundant.

52

Thank you so much for your response, Sonya. I am very, very grateful. :slight_smile:

53

Hi Sonya,

Could you tell me what skills are covered in Math 3? Is it only multiplication and division facts? Is there any memory training? Or is the JG memory training program separate from its math program?

Thanks!

54

The memory training is integrated into the math program. It is all the basic tricks used every memory training program. He integrates it into the program. It continues, I assume, though the end of the system. Ella uses the Soroban so she is already doing rapid mental calculation. JG 3 teaches rapid mental calculation with the 4 basic functions. If you have a separate memory training program you want to use, then I still think you can skip it. You can also enter at Math 5 when she is older as that covers Math 3 & 4. I’m still wondering how you are going to fit it all in and still get your laundry done and dinner on the table. :wacko:

55

It does sound like math overkill, doesn’t it? lol But you guys don’t know how math-obsessed this little girl is! Here are some examples just from the last couple of days:

  • A friend of my mom who was a little hard of hearing asked her to repeat several times how old she is, and Ella was getting a little exasperated. Finally, she told her, “I am 5-1, 2x2, 12 divided by 3 years old!!!”

  • In the shower last night, she told me, “Mama, I figured out what 5x12 is! Because 5x6 is 30, and if you double 6 it’s 12, and if you double 30 it’s 60. So 5x12 must be 60!” (She has the times tables memorized only up to x9.)

  • Then, this morning, the very first thing she told me as soon as she opened her eyes was,“Mama, you know, 1,4,9,16,25, and 36 are special numbers, because it is the number times itself.” So I guess I know what our math lesson today is going to be - I have to introduce her to squares and square roots! At least she knows the concept already, I just have to teach her the terminology. :laugh:

56

If she decides she doesn’t like you anymore, she can always come live with Auntie Sonya. :yes:

57

One other thing sshe might like would be dreambox.com. I use it as a supplement for my son.

Homeschool buyers co-op has a 60% discount:

http://www.homeschoolbuyersco-op.org/homeschool-math-curriculum/

Or if you PM me I can send you a link for a free month trial. It is a game format but is very conceptual, which is great for my son and he ability to think about and manipulate numbers. Most of oour other programs are more focused on memorizing the facts.

58

Here is something I came across today http://www.mathletics.com.au. Don’t know if this is of any use to you.

59

I am intrigued Kimba. I can’t view the site without flash but the US version says it is the number 1 math site in the US. I have never heard of it before. I love the timed maths races.

Here is a substantial review.

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/reviews/mathletics.php

60

Mathletics is very popular in Australian schools for grade 3 up. In particular the boys love it. It’s quite easy for kids to spend a substantial amount of time practicing skills without knowing it :wink: it’s a practice sight more than a teaching site, but older kids seem to like it. I don’t know how useful it’ll be for little ones, it’s been a while since I looked at it.