http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/144/a-is-for-app.html
Any thoughts on this article?
I would love to get a discussion going.
How does it compare to this article in San Francisco Magazine describing how some tech. industry heavy weights are using an un-plugged approach with their children?
http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/tech-gets-a-time-out
mom2ross
What a great juxtaposition of articles. Very thought-provoking.
I essentially build Web 2.0 websites for a living, and I’m probably more plugged-in than many…my amount of online time is embarrassing. But our educational methods are still pretty low-tech. We watch a minimal amount of TV (actually, zero TV, but some DVDs), almost no educational computer games (so far, in my experience, they don’t have much to teach and they aren’t that fun), and the only thing we do on the computer is watch videos and presentations. I think the most important thing to do, to increase your child’s intelligence, is read boatloads of books. Stories are important, but large amounts of nonfiction is just as important. I have to agree that “hands-on” learning can be very educational as well, and very motivational. Games and physical musical instruments, too. But books are really where it’s at. I guess I would call the sorts of presentations I (and we all) make “electronic books,” just to include them in the mix, because my boy has learned so much from our 250+ presentations (not just mine but those I’ve downloaded from others, of course), Starfall, Literactive, and a few choice videos.
I wasted WAY too much time on video games when I was younger (when video games were much cruder) and also (ahem) as an adult, sometimes anyway. As far as I’m concerned, giving a kid an iP(o|a)d would be like giving him a television set with all the nudie channels ready to switch on (a clever enough kid can get past almost any filter you put on). I wouldn’t want to do that–few children have the ability to use such a powerful device without getting completely sucked into it. And that is exactly what does happen (see The Dumbest Generation). The problem is the same as with TV, and as with TV, it isn’t precisely that the device “rots your brain” so much as that it saps your will and motivation to do something really gainful with your life. It’s a drug, which I think is particularly potent to young people.
DadDude, are you a web programmer?
I work on both web-based apps. and desktop apps. from a UX standpoint (user research, interaction design, and product management).
There are a few things that bug me about the Waldorf “set”, though. They act like any exposure to technology is going to turn their kids into internet and game addicted maniacs who will croak with cup-o-noodles on their lap and a mouse in their hand. What’s wrong with a reasonable amount of use of the computer, mobile device or TV with your kid (like for slideshow presentations and some educational programming)? It feels more like an excuse to keep their kids in an exclusive private school environment, away from “those other kids”. After all, you can limit tech. exposure at home and find schools with very prudent use of technology. Such powerful Silicon Valley executives could do better getting their hands dirty at the public school level or in education policy. Those kids will grow up smug and feeling mighty special, which I think is the parents’ real goal.
And shame on them if they go to work and earn stock options to help develop products and services that get kids sucked into this, that or the other game or multimedia habit.
The kids in the Fast Company article looked bright enough and well adjusted…and they’ve had iPhone access from the get-go.
In general I understand the sentiment…it’s most important to prepare the child for his encounter with technology so that he doesn’t get consumed by it. Don’t raise a consumer, raise a creative producer. Emphasize real relationship and social skills, not virtual ones. Play real games, not computer games. Make toys, don’t download them. I have absolutely no intention of letting my grade-schooler surf the web on his own! But the 100% no tech battle cries seem pretentious. I mean, we live in the information age, right?
Which leads me to believe a super great activity for our boy in some years will be taking apart and re-building a computer.
My husband thinks it’s a waste of time because the boy may never need to know what’s inside one, but I think it will spark a lot of discussion about engineering and math.
mom2ross
Taking apart and rebuilding a computer, definitely. The more you know, the better off you’ll be, generally. The whole notion that there are things you “don’t need to know” just irritates me. Of course it helps anybody who works a lot on computers to know how they work, physically. But even without that advantage, the knowledge you get from such projects just helps you build a total, integrated picture of the world. That is why intellectually curious seek knowledge, more than any practical uses of knowledge.
I design and write requirements for websites and then lead their implementation. More later :biggrin:
Thanks for the article Mom2Ross very thought provoking.
My cousin attends a Waldorf school and while find the philosophy beautiful I think it is also highly inpractical for today’s world. My Aunty is of the same thought no technology for my child (until she is too tired and will quite happily shove a dvd in the player) The school believes that computers and tv are 2 dimensional (whatever that means) and computers and tv are not good tools for creativity as a child needs to be drawing and painting and being read to. My argument to that is: That creativity is a something that happens in the mind and computers or pencil and paper are just tools for bringing the creation in your mind into reality. Also I find a lot of parents who send there kids to a waldorf school act superior to everyone else and act like there in a cult and steiner is some sort of god. (yes I am aware of how this sounds but i have met several parents from these schools and you often wonder what planet there on) The other thing I find irritating is that she is almost eight and still can’t read properly.
To a certain degree I agree the tv should be used to a minimum but like you Mom2ross I don’t have a problem with tv or technology but i do agree most learning should occur in books and drawing and colouring in but the world we live in a healthy dose of both I believe is a good balance.
Tv can be a drug and it is definently addictive but I don’t believe it is the device that is addictive but the content that is shown on tv that is addictive. it is all hype and speculative and flash flash flash at you the time. I must admit since we have installed add skip on the system I know tape the shows I like to watch, watch them without the adds (so Im not seeing adds for more tv and therefore just letting it role on to the next programme) I don’t find it anywhere near as addictive as i used to nor to I feel the need to talk about.
I have used DVDs and the computer on a regular basis to teach my daughter and have used it to teach her bits and poi and like you dad dude I make electronic books for her she loves them and can interact with but i also use plenty of children’s books and read to her whenever she lets me or can sit still long enough to be read to.
I hope this works out as a good balance for her.
Kimba
I suggest looking at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE1DuBesGYM on gaming as a social positive.
Moderation is always key, to me. We stopped tv at about 4, (went to DVDs) because when we were out hiking he wasn’t paying attention but just talking about tv. He did play a lot of online games with other kids. One time I came home and he had a phone on his ear and was playing online through the computer keyboard “You certainly are wired in”, I remarked. “Yeah Dad”, he said. “It’s the solution to the single child problem.”
I didn’t make arbitrary rules based on my preconceptions, I let him try anything and observed his relationship to it, and acted on that basis.
Gawd, that woman is – well, I’ll try to be nice. She’s trying too hard and is not nearly as clever as she appears to think she is. It seems that she’s arguing partly that, by organizing and working collaboratively in MMPORGs, we practice being part of large collective movements. Sure. I buy that–participating in WoW makes you a sheep. And sure, it’s plausible that being organized in that way makes you, qua sheep, perfectly suited to become a footsoldier in whatever mass movements inflicted upon society by people who are trying to save the world. I get that. But, of course, it doesn’t establish that kids can be educated very well that way. I also don’t see how the fact that people are “super-empowered, hopeful individuals” in the World of Warcraft makes them become that way in the World of Reality. No, my experience is that they become fat, lazy, and kind of pathetic, and if they aren’t that, then it’s in spite of their gaming habit, certainly not because of it.
Anyway, suffice it to say that I am not going to be happy if my boy ends up spending 10,000 hours (?!) playing video games before he grows up. What a tremendous, godawful waste of time–unless video games somehow radically improve, or unless, of course, you’re aiming to become a virtuouso sheep.
You know, when I was a kid, I remember vaguely thinking, “Wouldn’t it be great if the adult world was cool? You know, if they didn’t have lame TV shows, lame music, lame personal habits, and so forth.” Well, now that society has become infantilized, now that popular culture is continuous with youth culture, I want the boring old adult world back. Enough of adults playing video games. Enough of reality TV shows with utterly ridiculous “celebrities” acting like children. Enough of popular music that panders to the sensibilities of cynical teenagers. Enough of faux nonconformity that is as fascistic as the old conformity. Enough of the cult of “cool” that really is anything but…
I don’t make arbitrary rules based on my preconceptions either. I make carefully considered rules based on my preconceptions. :biggrin:
“I think the most important thing to do, to increase your child’s intelligence, is read boatloads of books.”
I agree totally with this opinion of DadDude. Reading is the most important part of acquiring knowledge. Besides that we can avoid the Alzheimer.
Marimari, are you saying you don’t do anything else except read to your child?
Do you subscribe to the no-tech approach, then?
If so, why?
Downloaded some ipod apps today. Meh. They’re OK. Not any that we will spend a lot of time on. Or have any of you found any ipod apps that are worthwhile?
P.S. BUT look out for a new ipod app that my project will be making. It will be much, much better than any of the apps I’ve seen so far…
Ha!
Is it for kids?
Daddude, take a look at the negative vs positive in your long post. Think of the world view that it communicates. That will have more impact on your kid than any system of education you take with him.
McConigal is saying that by making real world problem solving as attractive, collaborative and rewarding as WoW we can get a lot of good energy focused there, and thus positive solutions. I agree she is not making the point re education or even efficacy, I’ve looked for the 500 brilliant solutions she mentions and not found them.
I’m not sure why playing WoW will make someone a sheep (and what you mean by that) any more than playing , say, chess does.
I played many of the ed-tech games of the era with the above kid. Speak and spell, math mountain, robo-somethings. He has gone on to become as successful a scholar and athlete as most parents could hope for. After reading the article we figured he has 10,000 hrs plus on WoW. He credits it with teaching him resource and time management (within the game and out).
When he started he invited me to play too. I found that WoW was like a chess game in which, rather than taking turns, each player moves his pieces as fast as he can, and in order to move some pieces other pieces have to be moved first, and many pieces have to be created by a complex series of events. The amount of mental energy expended is enormous. Was it wasted? Is learning Latin or pumping iron, or chess, wasted energy? I had to beg off. I’m not sure why you would consider his success “in spite of” rather than in part a consequence of, his game playing. Your attitude reminds me of my parents generation’s ( fortunately not my individual ones) attitude toward rock and roll. Suggest you also Google “Flowcabulary” for rap as education.
He also played about ten different kinds of board games, mostly with his mother.
He often pointed out the documented benefits of gaming. I can remember that orthodontic surgeons who are gamers perform about 20% better than non gamers. If you flash a number of dots on a screen
and ask for a count, non gamers loose track at about 4-5. Gamers go to 10-11.
“Pocket schools” is an enormous concept bot for self empowerment and for kids without access to other education.
The best thing I did with this kid was this: I remembered how I disliked adults making decisions “for my benefit”. At an early age I told him “You are going to be the one who lives with the consequences of these decisions, so you are going to make the decisions. I will give you the benefit of my experience and advice, but you will make the final decisions.” I didn’t anticipate it, but this changed me from an authority figure to be rebelled against to a close ally. I always treated him as an adult with less experience, adn the extensive traveling we did taught him to learn from the world around him.
The most significant part of McConigal’s presentation is the last line, “We can create any world we can imagine” I would suggest that not only can we, but we inevitably will. I hope your app will help make a better one than you see in your post.
Hey, jorled. I do not appreciate being told to “think of the world view” that my stated views apparently convey, as if the world view thus conveyed were something to be ashamed of. If you think that I have said (or implied) something wrong, then explain that; I am totally unimpressed if you merely claim that I have made some deep mistake that I will realize if only I am more reflective. And, moreover, I don’t appreciate being moralized by a total stranger. So, cool it if you want to have a conversation with me.
I think we disagree about the intrinsic merits of video game playing. I maintain that it is a waste of time in about the same way that playing card games, watching television, or watching sports is a waste of time. Yes, sometimes you gotta waste some time; it’s called recreation and entertainment. Yes, there can be educational aspects of such activities, but their main purpose is entertainment. Of course learning Latin and exercising are far more gainful. You don’t actually doubt that, do you?
Video games (and I say this as someone who has probably spent thousands of hours, all told, playing video games in his life) are especially insidious because they are addictive, and they tend to substitute a sense of virtual accomplishment for real-world accomplishment. That’s the pathetic thing. When you could be “out there” doing something really gainful for yourself or others, you are inside racking up points in your virtual world. Big deal.
As to the last line, “We can create any world we can imagine,” this would seem to be either wildly over-optimistic or else a woefully unimaginative. I mean, I can imagine a lot of things nobody could ever create. But of course, surely, such a claim isn’t meant to be taken literally. And if not, what does it really mean? I guess it means something like, “Be imaginative, think outside of the box, and then always think creatively of ways to do what other people think is impossible.” Sure, I’d be on board with that.
Yep! Educational and for kids. You’ll see.
Do they not select for some key military personnel positions based on your ability to play video games? I do not advocate a child sitting for hours playing video games endlessly but I do think certain skills are learned by playing video games. I think the argument here is that certain parents see no value in these skills, but I do not think there is no value for every child.
Keep the peace.
I don’t say there’s no value to video games. I’m saying that, overwhelmingly, their value is entertainment value, and (with the exception of actual educational software) their educational value is minimal. Except, maybe, for future Air Force pilots, video game testers, and a few others.
Almost everything is training for something. Lying around all day in bed, depressed, might be good training for being a caring counselor later on down the line.
Hmmm, the thread has taken an interesting turn for me…namely comparing games in general with video games.
Games like Chess and Poker are highly valued in some societies…some board games are classics here in the U.S. and I bet other countries/cultures have their classics (like Mankala in Africa).
A lot of exceptional Poker players end up being exceptional in financial market roles, or in navigating politics - but some of them end up in Gamers Anonymous after blowing all their family’s cash.
On the whole, computer time is sucking up a disproportionately huge amount of most working American adults’ lives…and it’s trickling down to kids and students. If they become addicted, I guess it’s because the society encourages it. The information age we live in is shaping us.
It’s very scary for me to think my boy would become addicted to web surfing or gaming, but I’m a little addicted to web surfing myself (I call it reading, but does it eat away at my real productive life? probably).
I’m definitely thinking twice about the computer, TV and iPhone based learning tools I’m using right now…I will try as hard as I can to rigidly control the amount of screen time the boy gets…although I’m not willing to banish it completely, Waldorf-style.
mom2ross
Chess and some gambling games can improve mathematical and reasoning abilities, sure. I’m talking about most video games…and doing too much chess or poker would be a waste of time unless you’re taking it really seriously, as a serious hobby. I could totally get behind that. Having put many hours of my life into WoW, I just don’t see WoW could be a serious hobby in the same way. It’s sheer entertainment.
And I reiterate: doing almost anything a lot will give you some marketable skills. If you do a lot of drugs, you might become a very competent drug dealer.
Anyway, I’m getting off the computer now. lol
My point is that your description of (my) society is predominately negative, with almost no counterbalancing positives. Maybe you’re just bitching like we all need to do now and then. But if this is your general view of the world you live in, then I think that focus on the negative will influence those around you and especially your kid, to think negatively toward the world they are surrounded by. It is not a question of the correctness of what you say, but rather which truths you choose to spend your time with.
What I mean by create what we imagine is that we move toward manifesting the kind of world we hold in our mental vision, not immediately but gradually.
What kind of games did you play? Where does chess fit into your game value? I think the goal is to take the addictive qualities of gaming and wrap them around educational content. This is happening with firemen and Naval personnel and pilots in simulators. It can happen with more cognitive tasks.
It’s not my intent to moralize.
A quote:
When is a man educated?
“When he can look out upon the universe, now lucid and lovely, now dark and terrible,
with a sense of his own littleness in the great scheme of things,
and yet have faith and courage. When he knows how to make friends and keep them,
and above all, when he can keep friends with himself.
When he can be happy alone, and high-minded amid the drudgeries of life.
When he can look into a wayside puddle and see something besides mud,
and into the face of the most forlorn mortal and see something divine.
When he knows how to live, how to love, how to hope, how to pray- is glad to live…
and has in his heart a bit of song.”.